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Thread: Japanese chisels vs. cocobolo, with lots of pics

  1. #31
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    Well said

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    Ask and ye shall receive.

    This is what the front and back of the chisel looks like after chopping the cocobolo and the white oak. Still haven't resharpened it yet.





    The "deterioration in the cutting edge" in the photo you pointed out is really wood dust that caused a weird reflection. You can see that the vast majority of the edge is clean, and the only thing I can see is a tiny chip in the corner. It may appear that there is a small chip about a quarter of the way over in the second picture, but that's really a weird reflection. (It's amazing how hard it is to photograph a chisel edge.)

    To the naked eye, it's really hard to see this chip on the chisel.

    Chip/edge breakdown issues aside, the point remains that I can get clean endgrain shavings in pine with this chisel after chopping multiple times through two inches of cocobolo and 8/4 white oak.

    To everyone in this thread:

    The reason I decided to try this out is because on this and other woodworking fora I keep reading statements like the following:

    • "If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)"
    • "You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip, which then requires more major sharpening."
    • "I'd recommend the older western chisels and the LN chisels before I'd recommend spending the large sums required for name brand Japanese chisels."
    • "I don't think [Japanese chisels are] the best for a beginning woodworker because I think they're not as tolerant of mistakes as western chisels (it's easier to damage the edge)."

    I'm not trying to single anyone out, which is why I anonymized the quotes. But I think that there is a great deal of misinformation about Japanese tools and their capabilities.

    It is a misperception that Japanese tools are only useful for softwoods. Much woodworking in Japan was done with softwoods. But a significant amount of woodworking was done in hardwood as well. Case in point: the bodies of Japanese planes are almost exclusively made of Japanese white oak. The same chisels were used to chop out the opening of these wooden plane bodies as were used on softwoods. A search of antique Japanese furniture will turn up pieces made with keyaki (zelkova), and chestnut (kuri), both of which are hardwoods.

    It is also a misperception that Japanese chisels are prone to chipping. This statement is no more true than saying, "Western chisels roll their edge all the time." Once you get into an adequate level of quality in Japanese chisels, the chipping issue goes away. And no, I don't count the Grizzly or Woodcraft Japanese chisel sets as an adequate level of quality for Japanese chisels, any more than I would consider Grizzly or Woodcraft house brand western chisels as an adequate representation of quality for western chisels. Hopefully this demo puts that issue to rest.

    It is also a misperception that quality Japanese tools have to be super expensive. The Imai chisels that I use, at $50-55 each in the 1" or less sizes, are definitely competitive in price to Lie-Nielsen bevel edge socket chisels, which are $50 each except for the 1" size which is $65. (1" is the largest LN chisel available.) The set of 5 LN bevel edge socket chisels (1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4") goes for $250. A set of 5 Imai chisels in the same sizes is $258.30. There are more expensive Japanese chisels out there, but you don't need them to get good performance.

    I do think that Japanese chisels are good for the beginner. If it's okay to recommend LN chisels for a beginner, it's also okay to recommend Imai chisels for the beginner, since the cost is the same. The big advantages that I see with Japanese chisels (specifically my Imai chisels) are:

    • You don't have to learn how to sharpen a microbevel to get excellent results, which means that you can stop relying on jigs for sharpening.
    • The relatively larger bevel area on a Japanese chisel compared to western chisels also makes freehand sharpening easier than with western chisels.
    • Although the Japanese steels used in the cutting layer are very hard, with waterstones they are as easy or easier to sharpen than the A2 chisels I've run across, including the Lie-Nielsens.
    • I haven't found the western chisel yet that has the same edge edurance that I have with my Imai chisels.

    Finally, I don't understand the issue of using my Imai chisels as a test subject, in the "Well, of course this chisel did so well -- it's an Imai chisel, after all!" sense. This chisel costs $49.20 today, same as a Lie-Nielsen 1/8" bench chisel. In addition, this chisel is actually middle of the road as far as Japanese chisels go. It's not like I used a super high end chisel for this demo.

    I don't get the sense that if the situation was reversed, and I had used a Lie-Nielsen chisel to test the proposition that western chisels can't deal with cocobolo because the edge would get rolled after one mallet blow, anyone would think that it wasn't an appropriate test because I used a Lie-Nielsen instead of a Grizzly house brand chisel.

    In any case, this test was fun for me, and I hope that it settles some of the misperceptions about Japanese chisels.
    Wonderfully Said!
    Sharpening skills, the plane truth.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    ...
    I'm not opposed to Japanese tools. I'm glad we have the choice - some people find they are the best tools for their use.

    But when someone claims that all Japanese tools are superior to all western tools, my skepticism alarm goes off.
    Mike, we've gone through this before. When the only Japanese chisels you've tried are the cheapos from Grizzly, you can not speak about Japanesse chisels in general. This experience says only that cheap Japanese chisels don't perform well. Well, neither do cheap western chisels.

    Pam

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Raney Nelson View Post
    Mike, I absolutely understand your point here, but I would like to disagree somewhat with your assertion: The 'spirituality' is not in the tool, or the user - it's in the unseen area uniting the two. It may sound odd to an engineer when couched in 'spiritual' jargon, but really it's just the assertion that there are some tools that perform better for some users, and we can't fully explain the 'whys'. We have all experienced the feeling of 'rightness' that certain tools have. Whether there's a solid engineering explanation or not is not the final test: the results are.

    I contend that not only are the 'unexplainable' aspects of a certain tool important: it's often the most important thing. Find me a half-decent review that doesn't include somewhere a very heavy emphasis on 'you really have to try this tool to know how it works for you."

    Isn't that the same as saying 'the spiritual aspects' - or the combination of tool and user - is in fact the MOST important aspect of any tool?
    Raney - I don't really disagree with you but perhaps we have assigned different meanings to the term "spirituality". I have tools that I have the same feeling about that you described - the tool just "fits" me and works well. But I don't call that spirituality.

    And I'm especially skeptical when westerners start talking spirituality about eastern things.

    I have a number of old western tools (chisels and wooden planes) and I enjoy using them because of the connection I feel with the past while using them. I view myself a part of a continuum of users - I visualize the users of the past, as well as the users of the future who get these tools after I'm gone.

    I suppose someone could call that a spiritual connection (I don't) but even if it is a spiritual connection, I would not make the leap to say that old western tools are superior to any other tools, modern or Asian, just because I had a spiritual connection when using those tools.

    But in any case, if I'm describing the advantages of the tool to someone who has never used it before, I have to rely on a description of the superior physical attributes to convince the other person to try the tool. Trying to convince them that they will have a spiritual experience when they use the tool is a difficult argument.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  4. #34
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    maybe it would be best...

    Maybe it would be best for those of use who would like to be able to keep buying Japanese tools of high quality to have those who say

    "If you were to try to use a japanese chisel to chop a dovetail on cocobolo, you'd be up $#!+ creek after the first mallet blow. (much less lignum vitae)"
    "You have to be careful with Japanese chisels compared to western chisels or the edge will chip, which then requires more major sharpening."
    "I'd recommend the older western chisels and the LN chisels before I'd recommend spending the large sums required for name brand Japanese chisels."
    "I don't think [Japanese chisels are] the best for a beginning woodworker because I think they're not as tolerant of mistakes as western chisels (it's easier to damage the edge)."

    Maybe then demand would stay low, and prices wouldn't increase, and those of us who yearn for them, could hope that the supply would stay the same and then prices would fall.

    just a thought.
    Sharpening skills, the plane truth.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Niedermayer View Post
    Mike, we've gone through this before. When the only Japanese chisels you've tried are the cheapos from Grizzly, you can not speak about Japanesse chisels in general. This experience says only that cheap Japanese chisels don't perform well. Well, neither do cheap western chisels.

    Pam
    Could be. But here's my problem. The major advantage I see to a Japanese chisel is that the steel in the edge is heat treated harder than a western chisel and thus will hold an edge longer. I can't see any other real advantages compared to western chisels.

    To the best of my knowledge, all Japanese chisels use essentially the same carbon steel for the edge - white steel or blue steel - the difference is in how the steel is heat treated.

    Let's say that the Grizzly chisel is tempered too hard. The edge should be susceptible to fracture but if it doesn't fracture, the edge should last a long time because its so hard. But my experience with the Grizzly chisels is that the edge doesn't last much longer than my western chisels.

    Based on my experience, it's difficult for me to put out big bucks for a chisel in the hope that it will be better than what I've experienced.

    I'm absolutely willing to listen to arguments that would convince me to try a more expensive chisel but those arguments would have to be based on some physical characteristic of the more expensive chisel. For example, one can argue for the purchase of a LN chisel based on the steel that it's made of and the accuracy of the machining.

    Much of the (high) cost of a Japanese chisel can be attributed to the way it's made (by hand) instead of by machine, as most western chisels are. So I would expect to purchase a western chisel for less money than an equal quality Japanese chisel.

    Let me also point out that I'm not opposed to Japanese chisels. Many people like them and use them quite successfully. I've only talked about my experience with them.

    Mike

    [Added note: I have tried two other "brands" of Japanese chisels besides the Grizzly - don't remember the names but they were not $50 per chisel. I did not find any significant difference between the Grizzly and these other two brands.]
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 05-05-2008 at 2:58 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    ... the tool just "fits" me and works well. But I don't call that spirituality.

    And I'm especially skeptical when westerners start talking spirituality about eastern things.

    ...Trying to convince them that they will have a spiritual experience when they use the tool is a difficult argument.

    Mike
    Mike,

    Perhaps you misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that a lot of the 'sprirituality' issue is just semantics. Your statement above reinforces and acknowledges that. I also agree that if someone is trying to convince me I'll have a spiritual experience with a certain tool, I tend to check my wallet too...

    However, as I'm sure you would agree, the ONLY valid test of a tool is in the use and the results.All I was trying to point out is that sometimes we have limited capacity to explain the results in terms of physical properties. In these cases, people often turn to descriptions that are much less specific,. and in some cases tend to be couched in language that you might term spiritual.

    It is an entirely different case when someone is seeing a property that isn't there. This is not spirituality, it is delusion.

    Ms. Niedermayer seems to be insinuating that your only experience is with Grizzly japanese chisels... is that true? Because I'm sure you can see that this is a pretty flawed experience to generalize from, can't you? I think the lamination of steel, for instance, introduces many more possible variation than just harder/softer to the equation, doesn't it? And doesn't Wilbur's post go a very long way toward suggesting there is more going on here than Rockwell hardness specifications can indicate?

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Raney Nelson View Post
    Mike,

    Perhaps you misunderstand me. All I'm saying is that a lot of the 'sprirituality' issue is just semantics. Your statement above reinforces and acknowledges that. I also agree that if someone is trying to convince me I'll have a spiritual experience with a certain tool, I tend to check my wallet too...

    However, as I'm sure you would agree, the ONLY valid test of a tool is in the use and the results.All I was trying to point out is that sometimes we have limited capacity to explain the results in terms of physical properties. In these cases, people often turn to descriptions that are much less specific,. and in some cases tend to be couched in language that you might term spiritual.

    It is an entirely different case when someone is seeing a property that isn't there. This is not spirituality, it is delusion.

    Ms. Niedermayer seems to be insinuating that your only experience is with Grizzly japanese chisels... is that true? Because I'm sure you can see that this is a pretty flawed experience to generalize from, can't you? I think the lamination of steel, for instance, introduces many more possible variation than just harder/softer to the equation, doesn't it? And doesn't Wilbur's post go a very long way toward suggesting there is more going on here than Rockwell hardness specifications can indicate?
    Raney - You make some very good points, many of which I've already thought about. If there's a significant difference between two tools, there has to be an explanation for why that difference exists. For example, if I was to ask the product manager of Ashley Iles tools why their chisel was better than everyone else's, s/he would have a list at least a page long. While some of those differences would be of questionable importance, they would be real differences.

    Maybe I'm being too "western" but whenever I go to buy a product, my first question to the salesperson is, "Tell me why your product is better than the competition's". It might be that the product is lower cost, or it might be that the product lasts longer. It might even be that the company has great customer service. But the salesperson (or product manager) will be able to answer that question with some good reasons. In most companies, that list is developed even before the product is designed and built.

    The makers might be too small to make up such a list, but the western retailers should have given some thought to the question and come up with a list. And some acamedic must have asked the question "What makes a Japanese chisel work well?" There's a professor who has spent quite a bit of time studying how the original Damascus steel was made and has published quite a few papers on it. Seems like someone would have gotten interested in Japanese tools.

    I've had experience with two other brands of Japanese chisels other than the Grizzly but I don't remember the names. Neither was at the $50 per tool level. My problem is that I can't spend $50 (or more) per tool unless I can see some reasons why that tool might be better. That's mainly what I've asked people for. Mostly the responses have been what you suggested - try it and you'll like it. I haven't been able to make that leap of faith yet, primarily because I'm pretty happy with my western chisels.

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 05-05-2008 at 3:41 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    Much of the (high) cost of a Japanese chisel can be attributed to the way it's made (by hand) instead of by machine, as most western chisels are. So I would expect to purchase a western chisel for less money than an equal quality Japanese chisel.
    I really hope that you are not suggesting that in a "fair" comparison between a Japanese chisel and a western chisel, the Japanese chisel has to cost less than the western chisel? One could also argue that one would expect to purchase a Japanese chisel for less money than an equal quality western chisel, since companies that western chisels have larger marketing budgets than Japanese chisel makers do. In any case, it doesn't matter how a toolmaker uses the income from a tool sale, as the cost to the end user is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    [Added note: I have tried two other "brands" of Japanese chisels besides the Grizzly - don't remember the names but they were not $50 per chisel. I did not find any significant difference between the Grizzly and these other two brands.]
    By "not $50", do you mean less than $50, or more than $50?

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    I really hope that you are not suggesting that in a "fair" comparison between a Japanese chisel and a western chisel, the Japanese chisel has to cost less than the western chisel? One could also argue that one would expect to purchase a Japanese chisel for less money than an equal quality western chisel, since companies that western chisels have larger marketing budgets than Japanese chisel makers do. In any case, it doesn't matter how a toolmaker uses the income from a tool sale, as the cost to the end user is the same.



    By "not $50", do you mean less than $50, or more than $50?
    Definitely less than $50!

    I absolutely think that products made by machine can be sold for less money than hand made products, at an equal level of profit. That's what the Industrial Revolution was all about.

    Labor is generally the most expensive part of the production chain which is why companies move production to lower cost labor areas like China, India, etc. And each part of the chain has to be served. So Japanese chisels must be advertised, the sale must be made, and the product must be shipped. Trying to find savings in the chain is a standard part of the marketing and sale process but generally each part must be served. If someone found a much lower way to do a part of the process, everyone else would jump on that same technique and the advantage would be lost.

    That's why companies make things by machine - because it's less expensive than hand labor.

    No, I definitely expect a Japanese chisel to be more expensive compared to a machine made western chisel of equal quality. Labor is the most expensive part of the production process - and skilled labor even more so.

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 05-05-2008 at 3:45 PM.
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  10. #40
    Awesome discussion! Just one more 2 cents worth. Any discussion of Japanese hand tools has to take into consideration the significant difference between tools made by "traditional" methods and those mass produced in factories.

    Traditional Japanese "artisan" tool making is almost ceremonial in nature. The "spirit" in which these tools are forged simply cannot be separated from the process. It is an integral part of the process. To the casual observer, it may appear to be just a lot of fuss but the blades so produced are of vastly superior quality to those made in factories.

    Of course, this process also results in a higher cost. But in this case, you are actually getting something for the extra cost. You are not paying more because the tool was made using archaic or inefficient methods. Nor are you paying more because a "high priest" was involved and he needs to eat too. You are paying more because the tools are superior. The fact is that the traditional methods are actually quite efficient. The fact is that these methods are required to produce the superior results that Japanese tools have become known for. It's really no different than comparing piece of furniture made by a highly skilled artisan maker to one pumped out by a factory. Compare a Maloof rocker to one you can order from rockingchairs.com.....
    David DeCristoforo

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Drew View Post
    In my experience, the tools aren't brittle; they're hard and tough.
    And there it is; saying Japanese chisels are better than Western chisels is like saying Grizzly is better than Powermatic. Each makes good and bad tools. If I use a poor Powermatic drill press or a poor Japanese chisel and a good Grizzly Table saw or a good Western chisel does that make all Grizzly or Western tools better?

    There are varying qualities in most all 'makers' today and each persons experience will be slanted a bit on that specific experience. We all have probably been guilty at one time or another of letting one bad apple spoil the bunch, opinion-wise.
    "A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".


    – Samuel Butler

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    Raney - You make some very good points, many of which I've already thought about. If there's a significant difference between two tools, there has to be an explanation for why that difference exists. For example, if I was to ask the product manager of Ashley Iles tools why their chisel was better than everyone else's, s/he would have a list at least a page long. While some of those differences would be of questionable importance, they would be real differences.

    Maybe I'm being too "western" but whenever I go to buy a product, my first question to the salesperson is, "Tell me why your product is better than the competition's". It might be that the product is lower cost, or it might be that the product lasts longer. It might even be that the company has great customer service. But the salesperson (or product manager) will be able to answer that question with some good reasons. In most companies, that list is developed even before the product is designed and built.

    The makers might be too small to make up such a list, but the western retailers should have given some thought to the question and come up with a list. And some acamedic must have asked the question "What makes a Japanese chisel work well?" There's a professor who has spent quite a bit of time studying how the original Damascus steel was made and has published quite a few papers on it. Seems like someone would have gotten interested in Japanese tools.

    I've had experience with two other brands of Japanese chisels other than the Grizzly but I don't remember the names. Neither was at the $50 per tool level. My problem is that I can't spend $50 (or more) per tool unless I can see some reasons why that tool might be better. That's mainly what I've asked people for. Mostly the responses have been what you suggested - try it and you'll like it. I haven't been able to make that leap of faith yet, primarily because I'm pretty happy with my western chisels.

    Mike
    Mike - I agree that there has to be a difference - but I'm not at all sure that the differences are always readily identifiable. Particularly when there is a culture and language gap as extreme as the one we're talking about here. What I'm saying is that just because you haven't yet heard the explanation that works for you, that certainly doesn't consitute evidence that no difference exists.

    I also agree that I would never take the sort of leap of faith of buying a set of chisels that cost the same as my LN's without good reason (read: either solid explanation, OR solid personal experience). Like I said, I've never used japanese chisels.

    My primary observation remains, though (and no offense, but you're only reinforcing it) that the claim that japanese chisels are too brittle almost invariably seems to be made by people who have limited (or no) experience to speak from.

    Conversely, I have seen the sort of work that , for example, CHarlie Mastro, Timberwerks, and Konrad Sauer do with japanese chisels, and have heard each of them claim the argument that they are far too brittle is simply bunk. At the very least, this has served to make ME quite skeptical of the claim that these chisels are too brittle.

  13. #43
    Chisels are just a piece of metal with an edge and a handle. People have been making excellent furniture with all kinds of chisels.

    The comment I made earlier is that I find Japanese chisels too brittle (and I don't like the handles). My experience and opinion are my own - your experience and opinion may be different.

    I'm not trying to convert anyone - I'm just explaining my experience, as well as my thinking about the prodution and marketing channels that chisels go through.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by David DeCristoforo View Post
    Awesome discussion! Just one more 2 cents worth. Any discussion of Japanese hand tools has to take into consideration the significant difference between tools made by "traditional" methods and those mass produced in factories.

    Traditional Japanese "artisan" tool making is almost ceremonial in nature. The "spirit" in which these tools are forged simply cannot be separated from the process. It is an integral part of the process. To the casual observer, it may appear to be just a lot of fuss but the blades so produced are of vastly superior quality to those made in factories.

    Of course, this process also results in a higher cost. But in this case, you are actually getting something for the extra cost. You are not paying more because the tool was made using archaic or inefficient methods. Nor are you paying more because a "high priest" was involved and he needs to eat too. You are paying more because the tools are superior. The fact is that the traditional methods are actually quite efficient. The fact is that these methods are required to produce the superior results that Japanese tools have become known for. It's really no different than comparing piece of furniture made by a highly skilled artisan maker to one pumped out by a factory. Compare a Maloof rocker to one you can order from rockingchairs.com.....
    Regarding the rockers, David, suppose you had two rockers that were exactly the same, but one had Maloof's signature on it. The signed one would be quite a bit more expensive. But does it function any differently? No, it doesn't.

    Sam has announced that on his death, his employees will inherit the business. But they'll face the problem I described above. Anyone who wants a "Maloof" chair without Maloof's signature will pay a LOT less for it.

    I could take your note about Japanese chisels the same way - that a buyer pays extra for the name, but the function isn't any different.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  15. #45
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    Obviously.. this is a matter that must be settled once and for all...

    FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS...
    Gerogia Dome.. Atlanta, Ga.

    Japanese vs Western Chisels
    for the Heavyweight Champion-ship of the World

    Barbed Wire Around the Ring...
    Losers chisels will be incinerated after the fight at mid-field...

    Pep rally to be held before the fight.. Western chisel backers in West Parking Lot.... Japanese Chisel backers in East Parking Lot

    Ring-side seats are SOLD OUT.. but pay per veiw still availabe on the Chisel Channel... so act now as demand is high..

    Ya'll have a good day and may the best chisel win!

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