Japanese chisels vs. cocobolo, with lots of pics

[Terry Bigelow]

As someone who uses both western and Japanese chisels I can honestly say I have no dog in this "fight". However, I do take exception with one thing. I have a full set of Kumogoro (Ice Bear) Japanese chisels which I guess would be characterized as lower or maybe mid-grade chisels. They run about $27-40 depending on size. This puts them somewhere between the Grizzly and Imai (by price mind you). I have never had an issue with them period. In fact they have become my "go to" chisels as opposed to my AIs. No chipping period. Not to split hairs here, but to say anything less than $50 chisel is an excersize in frustration is not exactly accurate either. No, I don't have any scientific test nor do I have any insight about the spiritual aspects, I just like the way they work and have had no problems with them at all. Anyway, not trying to fan the flames in either direction just letting people know there are alternatives to the $50 level that at least one guy has had success with!

On a side note, these are the dicussions which make this place great, the civility in which they are carried out make it even better.

[Wilbur Pan]

Out of curiousity, how do you sharpen? Do you use a flat grinder for the bevel edge and waterstones?

Basically, I just use waterstones. I have a Tormek that I use primarily for dealing with turning tools, but I also use it to take out a big nick in a tool, or to change the bevel angle. But beyond that it's just waterstones.

Wilbur, could you tell me what problems those are, or point me to some discussion. I was thinking of getting a Japanwoodworker or Hida "store brand" chisel to try out a Japanese chisel. To my mind they are not "cheap" tools, and I would think that for their own reputation, these two vendors would private brand something significantly better than Grizzly or even Woodcraft. But neither are they as expensive as the Imai's you have. Why should I bite the bullet and try out an Imai or similarly-priced chisel?

The problems that I saw with Japanese chisels priced cheaper than the Imai chisels when I was buying them had to do with chipping issues. At the time, those included the Grizzly set, the Woodcraft set, and the Matsumuras. I had read about people who owned either brand that mentioned chipping. Hida and the Japan Woodworker didn't have their house brands at the time, so I can't speak directly to those brands. I can say is that if the Imai chisels are in your price range, I think you'll be really happy with them.

You could always call up JWW or Hida directly and ask them. They have been very helpful on the phone with me in the past.

If you are going to have an issue with a chisel, losing or rolling the edge is probably better than chipping. If you lose your edge frequently, you'll have to rehone the chisel more often, which is annoying but still leaves you with a useable chisel. If you get a chip, the chisel's function is going to be significantly compromised.

[Wilbur Pan]

I have a full set of Kumogoro (Ice Bear) Japanese chisels which I guess would be characterized as lower or maybe mid-grade chisels. They run about $27-40 depending on size. This puts them somewhere between the Grizzly and Imai (by price mind you). I have never had an issue with them period. In fact they have become my "go to" chisels as opposed to my AIs. No chipping period. Not to split hairs here, but to say anything less than $50 chisel is an excersize in frustration is not exactly accurate either.

I didn't know about these chisels back when I was shopping, but I'm happy to be proven wrong about my previous statement.

[Brent Smith]

Hi Wilbur,

I'm having a bit of a problem following your train of thought here. In one post you say;

"Finally, I don't understand the issue of using my Imai chisels as a test subject, in the "Well, of course this chisel did so well -- it's an Imai chisel, after all."

And then in another post you say;

"The problems that I saw with Japanese chisels priced cheaper than the Imai chisels when I was buying them had to do with chipping issues. At the time, those included the Grizzly set, the Woodcraft set, and the Matsumuras. I had read about people who owned either brand that mentioned chipping."

It seems that you are giving your own reason why using Imai's would be considered a factor in your testing. It is a fact that lesser quality tools of both east and west will not perform up to standard. My own experience with both cheap and expensive Japanese and western chisels shows me that it's not a question of whether Japanese chisels can perform, but rather at what quality point will any chisel perform well on Cocobolo or any other wood.

[Mike Henderson]

Wilbur, could you tell me what problems those are, or point me to some discussion. I was thinking of getting a Japanwoodworker or Hida "store brand" chisel to try out a Japanese chisel. To my mind they are not "cheap" tools, and I would think that for their own reputation, these two vendors would private brand something significantly better than Grizzly or even Woodcraft. But neither are they as expensive as the Imai's you have. Why should I bite the bullet and try out an Imai or similarly-priced chisel?

One of my issues with Japanese chisels is the cost. For $50 per tools, I can purchase an LN chisel which is generally acknowleged as a high end western chisel. But for that same $50 per tool, I can only get an entry level Japanese chisel - if I'm understanding how everyone has catagorized the Imai chisel.

So for me to bite off one of those Imai's, I'd have to believe that it will perform as well as an LN chisel. To bite off a more expensive Japanese chisel, I'd have to believe it will perform significantly better than a LN chisel.

Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

OK... here's a "final test". After having chopped up all that cocobolo and white oak and having not re-sharpened the chisel, see if you can split this hair any finer.....

[Wiley Horne]

We're beginning to run into a statistical problem. Which is that all of our accounts are inevitably gonna be anecdotal. It doesn't make sense for any of us to buy 100 9mm chisels from a dozen different makers and subject them to a protocol of tests, and do means and standard deviations. So it doesn't happen, and therefore we are guided by gut feel and whatever evidence is brought forward. Like Wilbur's evidence. And Mike's, too. And Terry's.

That's why it is all to the good for examples to be brought forward, knowing that you can only generalize a limited amount from anyone's personal data. But at least you have that to go on. Incidentally, I would not categorically place Matsumura in the 'bad' pile--I have heard one account of 'chipping' alleged against these, and I have heard at least a half dozen favorable accounts of them. Right now, I am using Imai sword steel, plus Funahiro, plus Tasai. Kiyohisa on order. They are all expensive. But years ago, I had several $35 dovetail chisels from JWW that looked like Matsumura made them--but whatever, they were $35 chisels--and they all gave good service under abuse. Like chopping mortises with them!

One final thing. All of us need cheapie chisels too. Like Borg chisels. Or chippable Japanese. What else are you going to use to chop holes in walls and carry around in a wheelbarrow to do fence repairs and carpentry. So even the 'risky' chisels aren't that risky. Plus, if you chip a chisel, you get to learn about grinding primary bevels. It's all good.

Wiley

[Terry Bigelow]

We're beginning to run into a statistical problem. Which is that all of our accounts are inevitably gonna be anecdotal. It doesn't make sense for any of us to buy 100 9mm chisels from a dozen different makers and subject them to a protocol of tests, and do means and standard deviations. So it doesn't happen, and therefore we are guided by gut feel and whatever evidence is brought forward. Like Wilbur's evidence. And Mike's, too. And Terry's.

That's why it is all to the good for examples to be brought forward, knowing that you can only generalize a limited amount from anyone's personal data. But at least you have that to go on. Incidentally, I would not categorically place Matsumura in the 'bad' pile--I have heard one account of 'chipping' alleged against these, and I have heard at least a half dozen favorable accounts of them. Right now, I am using Imai sword steel, plus Funahiro, plus Tasai. Kiyohisa on order. They are all expensive. But years ago, I had several $35 dovetail chisels from JWW that looked like Matsumura made them--but whatever, they were $35 chisels--and they all gave good service under abuse. Like chopping mortises with them!

One final thing. All of us need cheapie chisels too. Like Borg chisels. Or chippable Japanese. What else are you going to use to chop holes in walls and carry around in a wheelbarrow to do fence repairs and carpentry. So even the 'risky' chisels aren't that risky. Plus, if you chip a chisel, you get to learn about grinding primary bevels. It's all good.

Wiley

Well said my friend. And yes, we all need "beater" chisels. Better those than the pricey one's when the wife goes to open a can of paint!

One of my issues with Japanese chisels is the cost. For $50 per tools, I can purchase an LN chisel which is generally acknowleged as a high end western chisel. But for that same $50 per tool, I can only get an entry level Japanese chisel - if I'm understanding how everyone has catagorized the Imai chisel.

So for me to bite off one of those Imai's, I'd have to believe that it will perform as well as an LN chisel. To bite off a more expensive Japanese chisel, I'd have to believe it will perform significantly better than a LN chisel.

Mike

Mike, this is why I brought up my experience with the Kumogoro's. I'm certainly no expert on Japanese chisels(or western for that matter), but I don't see the Imai as "entry level" at $50. As I stated the Kumogoro's are a bit cheaper and leave me nothing to complain about. But, this is again a matter of each individuals definition of "entry level". Regardless, I still maintain you get what you pay for for the most part. That doesn't mean there aren't deals to be had or rip-offs as well, but for $50 I think you'd be hard pressed to find any major performance differences between the LN's and the Imai's(sharpening aside). The only differences would be those which we seem to all be talking about: personal preference!

[Dan Barr]

i think we've gone too far here...

not in a drastic way or anything like that. but, weve beat horse to death here as opposed to beating a dead horse.

i think that the imai chisel used here is obviously a good chisel. the woodcraft brand japanese chisels that i used flat out sucked! they chipped, crumbled and altogether werent good enough for quartersawn white oak. i was very disappointed and that is what i based my statemnent of "after one mallet blow, youre up $#@! creek".

no one is picking on Japanese chisels or trying to be a nationalist or something like that.

ciao,

dan

[Wiley Horne]

One difference is that LN says you better put about a 35 degree bevel on theirs. Didn't Wilbur chop that cocobolo and white oak at 29 or so?

Wiley

[Mike Henderson]

One difference is that LN says you better put about a 35 degree bevel on theirs. Didn't Wilbur chop that cocobolo and white oak at 29 or so?

Wiley

I'm going from memory here, but I think my LN chisels came from the factory with a 30* bevel. I sharpen them to a 25* angle and use a secondary bevel depending on the work I'm doing.

Mike

[Wiley Horne]

Mike,

Yes, LN ships them flat ground at 30 and advises using a 35 secondary on their website. However, your experience is more interesting. Do you have any idea what angles you're actually using? The data (even rough estimates) would be useful, particularly in light of LN's caution.

Wiley

[Mark Singer]

I think the wooden handle is held in the hand and the metal end addresses the work piece

[Stephen Shepherd]

a rented mule. Lets not pour a bucket of water on this, some interesting information is surfacing.

Stephen

[Larry Williams]

We all kind of need to be in the same room to really see what's going on. From the photos, it looks like one corner of the chisel has chipped off. We all have different definitions of sharp and chipping as well. We all expect different things from the steel we use and the edges we create. All I can judge this "experiment" by is the photos and close-ups at a higher resolution would help. The photo on the left is a section of your before photo and the one on the right is the after photo. To me it looks like there was edge damage an a whole corner is gone. The red arrow points to that corner. Reality may be different than what I think I'm seeing in the photos.