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Thread: Japanese chisels vs. cocobolo, with lots of pics

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    ...And in an attempt not to talk past each other, when I said that the nick in the corner was a guesstimated 1/128" of an inch I meant that the width of the nick along the edge was 1/128th of an inch, but didn't mention that the depth of the nick was far shallower than that. To look at it another way, the defect may have been wider than your 24 grit wheels, but the depth of the defect was far smaller.

    In any case, the chisel still could cut a clean corner with that nick, again probably because the nick was much wider than it was deep, like a ham handed attempt at cambering the edge.

    Hope that made sense.
    Wilbur,

    That's exactly what I would expect of edge chipping--that it'll be wider than it is deep. That's where the steel is thinnest. When I look at an edge the main thing I'm looking for is the quality of the edge right where the two planes that make up that edge meet.

    I don't think you'd have used that photo if you realized the failure at the corner is exactly what I think most people referring to when they mention edge chipping. At least I assume that's what they're talking about because it's what I mean when I talk about edge chipping. Yes, it is quick and easy to repair but then so is the type of dulling I want to see or even when the edge folds. Chipping and folding are indications of unpredictable and premature edge failure. Well, folding is predictable because you know it'll happen quickly.

    I think this is a great example of people talking past each other. I suspect you thought of edge chipping as something more dramatic. To me, it's dramatic enough when my intended edge fractures and falls off.

  2. #122
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    Feb 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiley Horne View Post
    Hi Pam,

    I could be wrong, but.....if you read Iida-san's ad carefully, it appears to me that a Miki City maker is using the older brand name, but those chisels currently being advertised are not coming from the shop that made Frank's chisels. Of course, it would be a small miracle if the original smith were still working, in any event.

    Wiley
    Could well be, I have no idea as it's not a brand name I use. I'd expect any potential purchaser to ask Iida-san before purchase.

    Pam

  3. #123
    Yes, you're right, and very good suggestion about asking Iida. That's what I should have said!

    Wiley

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Williams View Post
    Wilbur,

    That's exactly what I would expect of edge chipping--that it'll be wider than it is deep. That's where the steel is thinnest. When I look at an edge the main thing I'm looking for is the quality of the edge right where the two planes that make up that edge meet.

    I don't think you'd have used that photo if you realized the failure at the corner is exactly what I think most people referring to when they mention edge chipping. At least I assume that's what they're talking about because it's what I mean when I talk about edge chipping. Yes, it is quick and easy to repair but then so is the type of dulling I want to see or even when the edge folds. Chipping and folding are indications of unpredictable and premature edge failure. Well, folding is predictable because you know it'll happen quickly.

    I think this is a great example of people talking past each other. I suspect you thought of edge chipping as something more dramatic. To me, it's dramatic enough when my intended edge fractures and falls off.
    Larry,

    Thanks for clarifying!

    In this demo, I was looking for dramatic chipping, because that is what the conventional wisdom predicts will happen when a Japanese chisel meets hardwood, and that is what I wanted to find out was true or not.

    Could you expand on what you mean by "I want an edge to wear as if it were being polished"? Do you see a progressive decline in edge performance? From your descriptions it sounds like your experience is when the edge of a chisel folds/chips the performance suddenly drops off -- going from 60 to 0 in no time flat, as it were.

    The reason that I ask is that I don't think I've ever had a chisel that wears as if it were "being polished", so I'm not sure how that feels. Nor have I ever experienced a sudden change in performance with my Japanese chisels. Instead, performance slowly degrades as the chisels are used.

    This is what happened with the Imai chisel in this demo as well. As I was chopping and paring, nothing happened that would have made me stop and think, "Hey -- I think there's a chip in the corner of my chisel!" Instead, as I was chopping the last notch in the white oak, I was thinking, "This chisel is slowing down some. I'll be happy to get this chisel sharpened again." It actually was a surprise to me that I was able to get clean endgrain shavings in that scrap of pine the second time around -- and that is with that chip in the corner of the chisel.

    Certainly, I did not encounter any catastrophic change in chisel performance in this demo. It may be that edge chipping, as you are defining it, does something different to my chisels.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    For what it is worth, I have not used any Japanese chisels.

    I am not one for hooped handles and all the Japanese chisels seem to have them. If a tool is not comfortable in my hands, it is likely to be left unused for the favor of one that does feel good in my hands.

    I do believe Mr. Henderson made the same point about the handles not suiting him because of the discomfort caused by the hoops.
    Jim, the hooped chisels are meant to be hit with a hammer; the Japanese also make chisels intended for paring by hand and those don't have hoops. For the record, I've used Japanese hooped chisels a lot, often for paring, and find them comfortable, and, most importantly, very well balanced.

    I do think his point of chisel material being a physical substance and not a spiritual experience is valid. Steel wrought by vestal virgins stoking the fires on mount Olympus is not going to be any different than the steel made by unshaven grubs as long as the mixture and heat treatments are the same. No amount of ritual will change that.
    Early in this thread one poster did mention his spiritual satisfaction in using these tools, but I think the thrust of most of the arguments in the pro camp have emphasized more down-to-earth, objective qualities. But you knew that.

    If someone knows about changes in the trade off in toughness-hardness-sharpness trinity, please elaborate.
    This really has been addressed, most fully in the cited Fine Woodworking article. It doesn't have to be zero sum, i.e. any increase in hardness brings an equivalent brittleness; combining hardness and toughness is what distinguishes the better edge tools.
    Last edited by Frank Drew; 05-08-2008 at 10:14 AM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilbur Pan View Post
    ...Could you expand on what you mean by "I want an edge to wear as if it were being polished"? Do you see a progressive decline in edge performance? From your descriptions it sounds like your experience is when the edge of a chisel folds/chips the performance suddenly drops off -- going from 60 to 0 in no time flat, as it were.

    The reason that I ask is that I don't think I've ever had a chisel that wears as if it were "being polished", so I'm not sure how that feels. Nor have I ever experienced a sudden change in performance with my Japanese chisels. Instead, performance slowly degrades as the chisels are used.

    This is what happened with the Imai chisel in this demo as well. As I was chopping and paring, nothing happened that would have made me stop and think, "Hey -- I think there's a chip in the corner of my chisel!" Instead, as I was chopping the last notch in the white oak, I was thinking, "This chisel is slowing down some. I'll be happy to get this chisel sharpened again." It actually was a surprise to me that I was able to get clean endgrain shavings in that scrap of pine the second time around -- and that is with that chip in the corner of the chisel.

    Certainly, I did not encounter any catastrophic change in chisel performance in this demo. It may be that edge chipping, as you are defining it, does something different to my chisels.
    First, I'm not surprised you suffered edge chipping driving your chisel into cocobolo. It's pretty hard stuff and I'd be pretty cautious using my chisels like you used yours.

    I think you'd have considered the loss of your cutting edge catastrophic if you had actually been working on a surface that showed and you were concerned about surface quality. You weren't working with the edge you created when sharpening, you were working with the jagged crystalline edge left when hardened steel fractures. It's one of the problems I find with practicing or demonstrating, it's just different when you're working on something you've already invested time into and the results will matter in the long term.

    Your question about the wear I mentioned brings to mind a chisel I use for paring. It's a Witherby ground and honed at 25º. It wears exactly like I mentioned. The first sign of the edge rounding and getting dull is that it becomes slightly difficult to control depth of cut which means my line starts to wander. As soon as I start having trouble getting a perfectly straight line I know it's time to resharpen.

    This kind of wear is normal and expected in old carving chisels. Ashley Iles chisels seem to be the same. They're tools that will stay with you all day with only occasional light stropping to refresh the edge. I don't think carving tool makers could survive without getting things close to exactly right. Don McConnell has told me a couple times he thinks edge tool makers reserved their best steel for carving tools. I'm not sure these makers could grade steel that way and I think they were simply extra careful with heat treating and ,especially, tempering.

    I'm no fan of the magic bullet steels that seem so popular today. Every single claimed advantage comes at the expense of a different quality that good steel has. A-2, for example, tends to be coarse grained and doesn't handle being honed at 25º well. If someone wants to impress me with tool steel, they should hand me something like I find in my old gouges and carving tools by Butcher, Charles Buck, Howarth, Cam or Addis. I don't care much for mystique, I want performance.

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