Startup Issues

[David Brasfield]

Here are some photos of the new blower "choked" down to 4" so that I can follow through on the test for Barb. The intake is a "y" with 2, 4 inch openings, and I reduced the outlet to 4 inches as well. Notice the curved impeller through the opening. I can't believe I got the camera to focus down a 4 inch dark hole

Please forgive my taping job, I used as little as possible since I will change this back to a 6 inch system after some testing.

The blower is from a purchased dust collection system (that I didn't need), but the same blower cost $100 more without the accouterments. If anyone needs spare bags filter or parts, just holler.

I have also included a picture of the rep installed blower, and I will include a picture of the ducting behind the machine in the next message.

David

[David Brasfield]

Here is a photo of the original 6 inch to 4 inch installation done by the rep. Like I said, I don't think he was trying to pull anything, just under informed. His knowledge of the machine and CorelDRAW was impressive. The only thing that gave him a bit of trouble was connecting the Epilog to the local network in the shop. That also turned out NOT to be his fault, but a bug in XP that doesn't like leading zeros in IP addresses, and will assign random numbers as a result. I caught that one.

Here is the photo, and a couple of part of the shop vacuum system, and one of my ShopBot getting ready for a new motherboard.

David

[David Brasfield]

Hi, folks.

Back to testing for Barb's situation. I didn't get a chance to hook up both 4 inch input ports, so I gave the new blower the test from hell.

One 4 inch connection coming from the two 6 inch ports on the back of the Legend, choked down to 4 inches (see photos above), then combined in a "Tee" to a single 4 inch flexible aluminum hose, which I connected to the blower. I capped the other 4 inch input port on the blower. I then connected the output of the blower to some more flexible aluminum hose (also reduced to 4 inches) which finally makes it outside after a couple of turns.

When I first turned the blower on, it almost pulled the 4 inch input hose apart (tried to collapse). The output looked like one of those long circus balloons blown up very tightly, arched in the air.

The battery died in the camera, so I left it all hooked up until tomorrow so that I can take photos of the system off, then on. It is quite comical to see.

Even with it choked, it moved all the smoke out of the cabinet post-haste. There was never any slow drift of the smoke, it was always moving quickly toward the ports.

After I photo the system as is, I will change it to dual 4 inch inputs to emulate Barb's system, and run a few more tests. Even now, though, I can't imagine why this blower won't solve her problem. My total cost so far with shipping included (shipping was $60 because of the weight), $318 US. I had a couple of adapters and some hose on hand already. I did have to run a 220 VAC circuit for the blower, but I had everything I needed on hand as well, besides, the outlet is only about 10 feet from the panel.

The only thing I don't like is the mostly empty "sled" on casters since the rest of the intended dust system is missing. Maybe I will make a mount when I get a chance.

All the best,
David

[David Brasfield]

All connections 4 inch.

1) Blower OFF, "tee" and hoses relaxed.
2) Blower ON, "tee" and hoses not so relaxed.
3) Blower OFF, hose to blower relaxed.
4) Blower ON, hose drawn up like a really cold day.
5) Blower ON, cartoonish flexible exhaust duct.

I am off for dual 4 inch tests. I will cut some 1/2 inch baltic birch and see how it works. I will post photos when done. That will be the last of my experiments before I convert the system to all 6 inch (as spec'd).

David

[David Brasfield]

I setup dual 4 inch ports on the Legend fed into a blower with the exhaust reduced to 4 inches.

All of the cuts through the 1/2 inch baltic birth went without a hitch. I cut two sets of letters, the second set I basically "cooked" for maximum production of smoke.

So, it is possible to exhaust a 120 watt Legend EXT using only 4 inch ductwork, but only practical if done correctly.

As soon as all of the odd pieces I didn't have on hand for the 6 inch setup arrive, I will finish the job to factory specs.

I hope this has helped someone, especially Barb. Feel free to ask me any questions publicly or privately and I will tell you what I know (probably not much).

Pictures are as follows:

1) Blower exhaust at rest (unhappy clown).
2) A shot of the temporary dual 4 inch setup from the blower side.
3) A shot of the setup opposite the blower.
4) The original "bad idea piece removed", sans the Mickey Mouse blower shown previously, and the 6 inch to 4 inch adapters still taped to the machine.

David

[Scott Challoner]

David

I think the lengths you have gone to help another creeker are admirable.
Just wanted to say that.

Also... A 120 watt laser and a ShopBot?! Can I come work for you?

Regards

[David Brasfield]

David

I think the lengths you have gone to help another creeker are admirable.
Just wanted to say that.

Also... A 120 watt laser and a ShopBot?! Can I come work for you?

Regards

Thanks. I have had lots of help over the years from kind people, I just try to pay it some of it back.

I wish you would come work for me. More stuff than the wife and I can handle right now. Good problem to have

David

[Jeanette Brewer]

Thanks. I have had lots of help over the years from kind people, I just try to pay it some of it back.

I love your attitude!

I don't mean to hijack your thread but I have to tell you about a friend we have in Hawaii...

Four years ago, this gentleman called (at that time, he lived in Washington) and asked if he could swing by our showroom during a layover he had in Dallas; he wanted to stop by and get our advice on starting his laser engraving business.

He said, "I know I'm not in your territory and you can't sell me anything [we're an engraving equipment distributor] but if you'll spend some time with me re: my new business, I promise to 'pay it forward'".

Of course, we told him to come on by! Shortly, thereafter, we saw him logging on & answering questions on industry discussion boards; we saw him join ARA [industry association] & volunteer his time; we saw him, time after time, offer his cell number to anyone who needed to call for help &/or advice.

It's been fun watching him live up to his "pay it forward" promise and I appreciate the fact that you're doing the same thing!

Keep up the good work!

[Richard Rumancik]

Hi David

Glad to hear that you got this blower to work for you. Can you supply the manufacturer, part number etc? Do you know the wheel diameter offhand?

I'm still trying to get a handle on this. I suppose the "easy answer" to Barb is to do what you did, but I'm not quite satisfied giving her this answer until/unless we can identify WHAT exactly is wrong with her system. She has invested quite a bit to mount, install and wire a blower on her roof. If I were Barb, I'd want to keep it up there if I could. It is not unusual at all to mount industrial blowers and exhaust systems on the roof. Do you think there is any significant loss from the elevation difference?

We need to compare the specs on your system to hers to determine why hers is inadequate. Maybe she can challenge Peerless to determine if there are any alternatives in her case.

[David Brasfield]

Hi David

Glad to hear that you got this blower to work for you. Can you supply the manufacturer, part number etc? Do you know the wheel diameter offhand?

I'm still trying to get a handle on this. I suppose the "easy answer" to Barb is to do what you did, but I'm not quite satisfied giving her this answer until/unless we can identify WHAT exactly is wrong with her system. She has invested quite a bit to mount, install and wire a blower on her roof. If I were Barb, I'd want to keep it up there if I could. It is not unusual at all to mount industrial blowers and exhaust systems on the roof. Do you think there is any significant loss from the elevation difference?

We need to compare the specs on your system to hers to determine why hers is inadequate. Maybe she can challenge Peerless to determine if there are any alternatives in her case.

I wouldn't dare tell her that my experience will fix her issues. I do know that it fixed mine, even with it all choked down.

My (somewhat educated) guess at her issue is the inability of her blower to handle the negative pressure end of things. A vacuum blower has to work efficiently as possible at both ends of the blower. It needs to move a lot of intake air, as well as overcoming high static pressures from filters at the output side. It simply seems to me, that she needs a blower, that "sucks", better. One that handles negative pressures better while maintaining a decent flow.

I simply bought a blower designed to suck. It has curved impellers, it is cheap as it made in China. It is quiet, as long as you pad the mostly empty platform on coasters, which I will take off and sit it on foam.

What I ordered was a PennState Industry DC2000B. It came with bags, and wheels and a 50' section of plastic 4 inch hose (which I never received), and a 4"X4"X6" "Y" that attached directly to the blower intake (will be removed soon). The impeller is 12 inch and about 5 inches deep (a guess).

It would help me confidence wise on her behalf, to simply know how she has her system "plumbed". I do know that she will need at least a 5" exhaust, and 2, 4" ducts directly to the motor for maximum effect.

She could also look at my pictures and do a temporary setup to test with, add a simple exhaust through existing ductwork to the blower on the roof (with the roof blower NOT energized).

She will need 2 lines into the blower, and a decent sized line out. If that presents too much trouble, then a conversion at the back of the cabinet from 4" to 6" with a "Y", NOT a "Tee", then 6" to the blower should work.

If she is exhausting her current system from the cabinet to the blower on the roof with a single 4 inch duct, then she has work to do regardless.

All the best,
David

[David Brasfield]

One additional issue. If she is going to contact Peerless, ask them where they took the static pressure vs. CFM measurements. If it represents a differential, then their numbers are mostly useless as well.

Ask them how much vacuum they can pull at 6" static pressure and 800 CFM airflow. I doubt they can attain 6" of pressure at 800 CFM, probably more like 3" at 320 CFM. Just a rough calc in my head.

If you have a really big exhaust system in a tightly closed building, then you have to figure for the additional affects of negative pressure. Basically, you need about 1 square foot of open (to the outside) space for incoming air per 500cfm (rule of thumb). Usually, it isn't an issue as most shops leak air like a sieve. Small tight places are an issue with higher CFM flows, and can especially be dangerous with items such as gas fired water heaters and oil fired boilers.

Every shop should have a good carbon monoxide (CO) sensor (designed quite a few of those over the years). A smoke detector is NOT good enough.

Off my soapbox now
David

[Barb Macdonald]

and burst into tears.
Sorry, bad week, little tornado scared the **** out of me, on the weekend. Nothing like what the Plains get, but scary enough, thank you
I'm at home, I'll respond at my usual over-length once I'm less hungry, and more coherent. Thanks so much, David.
I've been lurking a bit, waiting for your pictures. "Eureka!!!!" etc. doesn't even begin to describe the elation.
Gosh, I'm tired.
Thanks, again. Words don't cover it, at all. Wow.
The Creek rules.
All of you.
Can i give y'all a group hug, virtually, cause I gotta go, and I feel like I should keep rattling on, but oops, there goes the blood sugar.
all the best
sheesh
B

[Richard Rumancik]

Hi Barb

Glad to hear you escaped the bad weather.

Can you refresh my memory? If I recall, Epilog changed your front grille to help improve flow. You said you thought it might have helped, but it was not the answer . . . But you still have the original rear cover with two 4" duct attachments, correct? I wonder if it is possible to change the rear cover to the two x 6" version. Peck, if you are following this, can you comment? Did they make some changes internally that would prohibit it? I'm wondering if it isn't something that should be looked at further. Even if it isn't a "perfect" match with the internals, or if it would need a little rework to fit it, maybe it would help . . .

I'm looking at David's blower and trying to compare - but it is a bit complicated so may take a bit of time. In case you are interested it is at
www.pennstateind.com/store/DC2000B.html

But I suggest you sit tight for a while longer and don't do anything rash until we look at it a bit more.

[Richard Rumancik]

. . . Thanks so much, David.
I've been lurking a bit, waiting for your pictures. "Eureka!!!!" etc. doesn't even begin to describe the elation.

David, I hope you realize that Barb is probably going to ask you to marry her . . . just warning you . . .

[David Brasfield]

Thanks for the reply, Rodne.

I was working on a simple project last night, using the features you mentioned (correctly, I thought), making parts for a box with finger joints. When it came time to join all the objects, there was misalignment between the squares (fingers) and the rectangle (box side), even though all positions and sizes were done with 1/1000 precision. I finally found part of the issue by zooming until I could see that the vectors didn't match.

I manually matched the lines, and never got the vectors combined enough to remove the unwanted portions of the squares. Weld didn't help as it simply removed square objects from inside the rectangle (and other strange things).

For what it is worth, the first project I did with X3 involved doing a trace of a bitmap, cleaning it up, then doing a simple vector cut. I kept sending the job to the laser, and it would do nothing other than beep and display "Done". I finally rebooted windows, opened Corel and the same file, hit print and it worked perfectly. Is it possible I am aggravating a known issue with X3?

Just thinking out loud...

David

I had a similar experience again last night. I spent about 4 hours on it, before I realized that I had violated my own golden rule, which is "most mysteries have simple solutions".

I had a line that was raster size that would cut every time I would test the design on some scrap. I would open the file, look at the segment, and sure enough, it would be the wrong size. I would fix it, send it back to the laser, and a different line that had previously not vectored, would cut through. Again, I opened the file, and it had been changed. I fixed it, and back to the laser again. This time the original line, had once again, changed back to a vector size.

I am ashamed to admit that I engaged in this loop 6 times before I realized what what wrong.

I rebooted windows, loaded the last saved file. All the lines were the right size, and the design came out as intended.

Too many years working with unix, folks. Then I starting buying Macs when they went BSD based, and I have been ruined away from anything "Gates" for any reason jut shy of brute force.

Evidently I am a bit late on the windows/corel learning curve, but I don't think that I will forget this lesson. If it starts doing weird crap, do NOT assume you are doing anything wrong until you have rebooted.

David