Ready to throw in the towel (Coffee table finish) need help

[Jason Scott]

No joke guys, I am so sick of this table I am ready to light it on fire. I'm sooooo pissed, anyway, hoping you can help maybe. The attached picture is an upclose shot of the problem I keep running into, this is the 4th time I have redone the table with a new finish. You already know the shellac incident, so I switched to the arm-r-seal which I know is the best stuff out there and the results are in the picture. This picture was taken after I sanded it back down again the 4th time, b/c the arm-r-seal, while a beautiful finish was leaving what appeared of "brush marks" all over the table even though I rubbed it on, so I am confused as hell. So I thought "maybe I'm putting it on too thick" so I sanded it down, then used a paper towel and "rubbed" in the arm-r-seal this time, very thin and the result is what you see. I am pissed and confused and frustrated guys, can you help? I don't think this is a finish technique problem b/c I have finished nice pieces in the past, what the hell is wrong with this table? Can you tell me what those marks that look like brush marks are? I thought maybe it was just the grain, but it goes right over onto the inlay so it is something on the "surface" but I have sanded and sanded and it keeps giving me this streaky/brush mark look. If I put more arm-r-seal on it builds gloss but still looks like crap b/c you see those damn marks...Even with the arm-r-seal it still looks blotchy and fuzzy to me, far from what DJM, or any other decent craftsman turns out. The table is the nicest piece I have ever made and I feel like I'll never get it finished b/c of this...Is there something "in" the wood causing this? I am so stumped I have no idea what to do, it looks like to me I might as well sand off this 4th, 1st coat again and start over with the 5th time refinishing the top, but I just feel like it is going to turn out like this again. HELP! Thanks for any advice/direction.

[Dwayne Watt]

How did you sand this down? In the photo, these look an awful lot like belt sander marks.

[Jason Scott]

I don't own a belt sander, I used a PC ROS to take down the arm-r-seal finish and start again...

[Walt Caza]

Hi Jason,
Sorry for your frustration...
it is an oportunity to learn and improve for next time.
Some lessons can't be had any other way...
I do not know all of what you did, but I suspect it is not about any finishing product. It looks to me to be your surface prep.

My first try would be to do the entire top with a card scraper.
Do not sand it with any method. Get the surface all the same.
Then, before applying any kinda finish at all, wipe down the fresh surface
with maybe mineral spirits. This will help reveal what you can expect after
finish is applied, and leaves minimal if any residue.
This will let you know if you are ready to proceed.
Otherwise, keep scraping until test shows consistent porous wood.

Rather than strike a match, maybe put it to the back burner...
sometimes it does miracles to come back fresh another day.
Good luck with it,
Walt

[Bryan Berguson]

Did you use a grain filler?

The nicest finish I've ever done was with wet/dry sand paper and Waterlox. Started with 220, then 400 and finally 1000. 220 SP & finish and wipe off. (This is my grain filler). Wipe on next coat with clean cotten. Do that with each grit. You'll know after the first coat if your problem still exist.

Bryan

[Doug Shepard]

What grit did you sand to? I'm kind of with Walt on this one, suspecting surface prep. It looks like a couple areas may be fuzzier than others and are absorbing the finish more and giving you the blotchies. Short of sanding it all back down and starting over, do you have a piece of walnut you could play with? I'm wondering if you tried a danish oil type finish and wet-sanded it on if you couldn't get it to take finish everywhere consistently?

[Todd Bin]

Jason, sorry to hear that even the Arm-R-Seal didn't work out. I guess I am with the others. Use a card scraper or spokeshave and scrape the surface down. (Although I am starting to get a little concerned about your inlay. That many sandings/scraping and the inlay is got to be getting pretty thin). Use the mineral spirts to see if you still see the splotches.

I am not sure if you did, but I always apply a coat of Seal-a-Cell before the Arm-R-Seal.

Good Luck. Maybe some expert finisher can help.

[Jason Scott]

Thanks guys, I just have a hard time believing surface prep, I started at 100 grit then 120/150/180 and finished with 220, it was baby butt smooth, heck it was perfect...I am worried that the waxed shellac finish I removed may be causing problems, but it is definately "blotchy", some areas shiny, some not, drives me crazy. I had the same "blotchiness" with the shellac in the begining, 5 refinishes ago I just don't get this, I don't know why it will not take evenly, is this the way walnut does? I have never had this problem with other things I've built. I will take it all back down tomorrow and do the mineral spirits clean off and see what I have (that is if I am not still upset).

Can someone tell me the best way to apply this arm-r-seal? I have tried putting it on with a foam brush and wiping it on, neither seem to produce good results (but again that is probably b/c of some surface problem at this point) And no I did not use grain filler. It is funny, in some angles when you look at this top it is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen, the depth of the finish is absolutely breathtaking, but then it looks like this at other angles and that is just NOT acceptable to me, I'd rather throw it away honestly

[Jason Scott]

Hey Todd, yes I did do the seal-a-cell first, it looked the same way, blotchy.

[Denny Rice]

I know this can be a pain. Before I apply any stain, or before I even get into finish sanding I will take a damp cloth with luke water and wipe the entire project down and let it air dry (24-48 hrs) to raise the grain of the wood. I know from expierence that Maple will leave blothes that look just like that if you do not raise the grain of the lumber and if you just sand and apply finish the finish will not be even and leave spots on it. I suggest you re-sand to remove all traces of finish from the project wet entire project down, and re-stain. At this point whats it gonna hurt? Just a thought

[Walt Caza]

Hi again Jason,
This is going to sound confrontational, because it is typed.
I mean well, and am trying to help you...
but it could sound otherwise over the computer.
If we were standing in your shop, chitchatting, this might be easier
to swallow...

We tend to seek advice, when we know the answer, but wish we didn't...
at a glance, it is plain to see, that your prep work around the inlay,
differs from the surrounding wood. The resulting finish blotching is a
symptom of that inconsistency. The fibers have been treated differently.

It is pointless to argue your sandpaper progression.
How long is a piece of string? As long as it takes to get the job done.period
Imagine someone trying to argue the point of how much string they used,
to inadequately secure something. It doesn't matter...

I hear you when you say you do not believe it is your prep that is the problem. May I be so bold as to suggest that your inablilty to accept that,
is your problem this time?
I know it is hard to swallow, but that may be where the lesson lies.

I am not trying to get your goat. I am on your side.
Us vs. your table top. I feel It could be readily fixed.
Forcing the issue, after running out of patience with it, may not your strongest approach.
Protesting your 5 refinishes, may be a clue to inadequate method.
No fight, no animosity...
but the very definition of insantiy, is to do the same thing, and expect a different result.

Saying that you don't get it, after several experienced hands make suggestions, is a hint to where the problem persists. Sorry man.
You seem to think baby butt smooth is the goal of prep, but
may I suggest it is not? Consistent treatment of all continuous surfaces
is the goal, and the only way to achieve a consistent surface.
Forget products. It looks like you horsed the ROS around the inlay.

As we better learn wood, there can be a dawning of awarenenss
that sandpaper is not the be-all end-all of surface preparation.
There are alternatives, perhaps you could explore them?

This obstacle has value. Scrapping the project negates a chance at a
valuable lesson that can serve you well, moving forward.
Think of how all this would sound to a greybeard woodworker?
The mind is like a parachute...it can only work when it is open!
I hope you can resolve this,
it's just growing pains, and we all must persevere through them,
trying to help,
Walt


hint: can you see what your own words are revealing?
"I just have a hard time believing"
"I just don't get this"
"I don't know why it will not take evenly"
"I have never had this problem"
"Can someone tell me"
"I'd rather throw it away"

[scott spencer]

Hi Jason - I don't have enough expertise to add anything to the great tidbits already given, but I'd like to encourage you NOT to scrap what looks like a potentially beautiful piece....it actually already looks pretty good to me as is, but I know the feeling you're experiencing. Scrapping it will ensure an exercise in futility and removes any potential...end of story. Sometimes it's best to retreat long enough to regroup....we've all been to this point and share the frustration of thinking we're in the home stretch when we're not. "Long enough" is an unknown....could be a day, could be a month, but coming back to it with renewed interest (and patience) should help you see things with new eyes, and will help relieve the frustration. Good luck and please post back with the finished heirloom!

[Mike Cutler]

Jason

Don't hit it with a match. You've done beautiful work so far. If you do nothing else, put it aside for a few months and then come back.

I agree with the others, it time to rethink the surface prep. Possibly the multiple finishes have somehow polluted the pores of the walnut, and what you are dealing with is the reaction of the differing finishes, especially that shellac. In actuality you are more "refinishing" than finishing at this point.

Acetone, Naptha, and Alcohol, and a bowl of water are the products I use prior to finishing to remove any contaminants that may exist on the surface of the wood. As I progress through the grits I use a combination of them to raise the grain and remove any oils my hands, or machines may have left on the wood, and to ensure that I remove all the wood dust on the surface, and in the pores of the wood to mitigate "bleeding".

I use the General Finishes products quite a bit. I use to think they were fool proof, but I've had some problems with them also. I've found that in high temperature/ high humidity conditions they can be a pain,and leave undesirable results. So now finishing is a fair weather job for me.
I've never had good luck with a foam brush using any finish. I think I'm too messy a person or something. I get finish everywhere with one. I'm a disaster with a brush. You should see me with paint.

My sequence for Seal-A-Cell,and Arm-R-Seal is as follows;

Flood coat of Seal-A-Cell applied with a white 3M sanding pad. I think the white pad is equivalent to 400 grit. Work the finish in and let it sit overnite.

I use the Norton sanding sponges, the red(220) on open pored wood, and the yellow(320) on tight grained woods and gently go over the surface to remove any "hairs" that have stood up, or any contaminants that may have floated to the surface.

I then apply the Arm-R-Seal with a lint free rag ( Old bedsheets, T-Shirts, and diapers are the best). The rag starts out approximately 12"x12" and I fold it over on itself until I have about a 2" tightly folded,square pad. I soak the pad in the Arm-R-Seal and use it like a combination brush/pad. Gentle back and forth motion with the grain and just a slight pressure.
In your post you refer to applying the finish with a paper towel. I would drop the paper towels for a few reasons. Paper towels contain chemicals left over from the manufacturing process, specifically bleaches, that may be adding to your problem. They are also slightly abrasive and will develop "edges" when wadded up or folded that could cause streaking.

I Let the finish sit overnite and then lightly go over it with a 320 sanding pad, and apply another coat of Arm-R-Seal. I may do this 3-4 times. I have had no luck using sandpaper between coats. The sanding sponges seem to conform to my hand and the surface of the wood better than sandpaper on a block.

I have found that no matter what the size of a project. The finishing phase for me is about a week. Very time consuming, and I have a tendency to rush. I slow way down now once I get to finishing.

[Greg Cole]

Hi Jason,
I've followed your table through the various posts... definately do not send this off to the burn pile. I'm not usually a "rah-rah" guy, but there are times when we all need to hear from a voice of clarity from the outside looking in, much like what's been offered above.
The dovetails, the inlay are firsts for you IIRC... it would be a shame to trash them.
IIRC I had a maple coffee table that gave me total fits in the same stage of finishing. Being a gift for my parents, I was much more hypercritical and wanted to achieve a finish beyond my means at the time. Yes, I believe I sanded that bloody thing at least 4 times including top coat removal. FWIW, Mission Style is a PITA to "re-re-re-refinish" too.
I agree with Mike about not using paper towels unless it's for a sample board.
Once you've gotten a uniform surface & fiber structure... maybe it's time to look into spraying finishes. Another opportunity to expand the finishing skill set?

Cheers.
Greg

[Larry Fox]

I think Walt has hit it for you. I agree that it is a surface-prep issue. It is all around that inlay and around the inlay is where most of the work was done both to get it in there and to level it. No finish or method of application will address issues with improper / incomplete surface prep. I sense your frustration and I agree with others who have suggested putting it aside for a bit to regain some perspective and clarity - you and your project will both be better for it. Whatever you do don't put a match to it though.