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Thread: Ready to throw in the towel (Coffee table finish) need help

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Windsor, ON
    Posts
    657
    Blog Entries
    3

    Thumbs up glad we can just talk...

    Hi Guys,
    I am pleased to find no one freaked out with my posting.
    Mike Cutler and I had a recent conversation about the difficulty of
    online communication. He said he often types up posts, but decides not
    to send them.
    I pointed my cursor at cancel on that risky post a few times.
    I ended up sending it, bracing for the splash it might cause...
    I am glad we can toss different ideas around without anyone getting
    defensive. It does not always play out that way in online forums.
    I really hope to help Jason.
    I sent him a private message to that effect.

    The thing is, all lessons cost. He has already paid full price on these lessons. To scrap it, would be to miss any payoff...
    and risk having to suffer these learning opportunities again.
    Not to mention, overcoming obstacles can pay greater satisfaction.
    I believe he can end up proud of this table,
    and hope he comes back to it fresh, and solves it.

    I suspect an old pro could fix it in under an hour with a scraper.
    The great thing about life, is that if we miss our lessons, we will
    probably get chances to learn them again.
    I am not better or smarter than anyone, this is just how I see it.
    good luck Jason,
    Walt
    There are no shortcuts to anywhere worth going! WCC

    Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind - Dr. Seuss

    Crohn's takes guts. WCC

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Southport, NC
    Posts
    3,147
    Jason, while it's impossible to diagnose many finishing problems without actually seeing the problem, I would suspect surface preparation as at least part of the problem.

    Is it only the area around the inlay where you see the problem? One of my first thoughts was that it looks like glue contamination. Walnut is a quite open pored wood and glue gets down really deep. And, there's no good way to remove it without very aggressive sanding.

    In the shop I was involved with, the guy who did or inlays always put a coat of shellac on the surface before he cut out the inlay. Then any adhesive could be wiped off and then sanded without it soaking into the wood.
    Howie.........

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Lexington, KY
    Posts
    283
    I was finishing the top of my console entertainment center and noticed some of the same lines you are getting across the stem of your inlay leaf. They look like planer ridges (even though you can't feel them). They almost look like shiny areas, like the wood has been buffed to a shine, but they blur the grain a bit.

    I had also sanded the top until it was totally smooth. I even went back to 80 grit a second time to work on them. Eventually I switched to a card scraper and a lot of elbow grease to get rid of them. I got most of them but got tired and left a few towards the back of the table.

  4. #19
    If it were me, I'd sand it all off again. Then I'd rub it down with mineral spirits. If you get blotches, dry it and resand. Keep going until you like it wet. The mineral spirits will presage how it'll look finished.

    I've also found that the first few coats of the topcoat can look bad. Once the wood's fully sealed and you start to build is when you really see it look nice.

    Also, I'd definitely try yr hand at a good china brush. It'll flow much better and w/o bubbles than a foam brush. If yr leery about brushing too thick, thin yr poly.

    Perhaps the best pc of advice, though, is to start from scratch on a test piece. This newbie learned that the best way to achieve a good finish is to have a lot of patience and to validate the schedule on a test pc.

    FWIW, the table is otherwise quite beautiful

  5. #20

    Gotta Love the Creek

    You learn something new everyday. Next time I do an inlay I will definitly be using the shellac trick. You know the old saying -- "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bin View Post
    "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
    I think it's "A 3 pound cut worth of shellac takes only a weencie bit of time to cure"

  7. #22
    My suggestion would be to take it to a cabinetmaker and have them run it through the drum sander (unless you have one). That way the surface will be flat and consistent. Then use your ROS starting with 120 grit then progress to 220. Wet the entire surface and let dry for a day. Resand starting with 180 and work up to 320. Vaccuum dust from surface and then wipe down with acetone. Then start the finish process.

  8. #23
    Hey guys,

    Sorry it has been so long, I was reading all your posts since I "took a break". I haven't been down in the shop in months, I was just burned out with the table. It was sad actually I took the table back down in the shop started scraping the top and then just quit, I was frustrated and it wasn't fun anymore so I turned the lights out and and shut the door on my shop. Well a few days ago I got back down there, pulled the table out of the corner, cleaned off the cobwebs and spiders and started scrapping and sanding again.

    First, Walt, no offense taken and thank you for caring so much about possibly affecting my feelings. I have come to the point after reading your posts that surface prep very well could be the answer. I never used mineral spirits or anything to clean the wood prior to finishing, I guess I always thought you sanded contaminants out, but now I realize that maybe I was sanding them in.

    So I have since this week applied 1 coat of Arm r seal sealer and one coat of the gloss. The table looks nice again, not perfect yet, but nice. I did not wipe it with mineral spirits again as I did not read this post prior to getting back to work on it. I am going to apply a few more coats of gloss and see what happens. Either way I am done with the project and on to other things with the lessons I have learned. Any chance this could have been caused just because the walnut was air dried or something? Anyway I'll post pics when I get the finish back up to snuff, I doubt it will be perfect, but then I guess with wood that is a moot point anyway.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Shoreline, CT
    Posts
    2,923
    I'll just throw in a few suggestions, basically for next time. When a finish has to be removed to start over, standing it down is not the best way, and can lead to uneven absorption. A stripper is the way to do that.

    It isn't all that uncommon for the first couple of coats to take unevenly on the wood. That's one reason why we sand between coats. The causes can be many, but as long as the finish is drying normally, the solution is pretty much the same. Sand it as smooth and level (this is HAND SANDING ONLY with a sanding blocki) as you can without cutting through to the stain. Eventually, you will be able to sand the surface level without cutting through. You will have sanded off a lot of fnish, leaving you with only about a coat on the surface, even if it has taken four coats to get there.

    You talk about one coat of Arm-R-Seal and one coat of Gloss. But wipe on finishes go on very thin. It takes about three coats of a wipe on finish to be equivalent to one coat of brushed on varnish. For a table top, I would not be at all surprised to have to use three brushed on coats, to get level and even. That means about 9 coats of wiped on finish on the top, perhaps 6 on the legs. Two or three wiped on coats isn't likely to be enough to coat evenly. I think you may be expecting good results too soon.

    The best way to apply a wipe on varnish is is "sets" of about 3 coats per day, spaced just so the preceeding coat is no longer tacky to a light finger press. These don't needed sanding between, but after three coats it is important to stop and let them cure overnight. If there has been overnight or longer cure time, then it is best to sand before applying the next coat.

    I would also quibble with the choice of Arm-R-Seal. It's an OK polyurethane varnish thinned for wiping. Polyturethane varnish are more picky as far as adhesion than alkyd or phenolic resin varnishes. Waterlox is the superior product, particulary if there is any question about what remains on the surface. You can also thin a good varnish to wiping consistency. Varnishes that would work well are: Behlen Rockhard, (darkish); Pratt and Lambert 38, McCloskey Heirloom (if still around) or its replacement, Cabot Varnish (Not polyurethane), both of which are lighter colored.

  10. #25
    Point taken, I will put on a lot more coats and see thanks.

  11. #26
    Just an update, with the second coat of arm r seal gloss it looks a lot better but still kinda streaky so I am hoping more coats takes care of it. I am using a brown paper bag between coats to get the nibs out and it seems to work really well, it does not leave any scratches and I don't believe I am taking any finish off with it, or at least it doesn't appear that way. I'll be putting on at least 2 more gloss coats before I make a decision on the outcome. I took a picture below of it, I had to take it with the flash off (sorry about the darkeness) but it was the only way I could show the steakyness I am talking about. This is the way the finish has gone one, even from the very first time with the shellac, this is now arm r seal. It certain lights/angles the finish is breathtaking, no joke, deep and lustrous, but if you look at it from a reflection standpoint with a lightsource like in the pic, this is how it appears. Now I feel like rubbing it down with high grit paper will help some of this, at least smooth it a little, but the overall effect will still remain. Maybe with 2 or more coats it will eventually look completely uniform. Anyway the reason I took this angle with the flash off is b/c I wanted to show you the worst of it, if I just took a picture at any other angle or even with a flash it would look perfect. Let me know your thoughts.

    ***Edit*** I decided to take a few more photos to show you how beautiful it can look too, these are from different angles with the flash on, I mean it looks gorgeous and flawless, but from other angles it doesn't, see my delima? And notice the reflection of the DVD, I am just in love with that picture, and from 80% of all angles you view the table from it looks that way, but then in the right light, whamo! I don't know.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jason Scott; 08-07-2008 at 9:08 PM.

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