Buying and Cleaning Woodys

[Bob Smalser]

I'm having a hard time placing a WWI era S&W with a shrouded extractor rod, but I'm not a very serious collector. However, showing that picture reminds of the constant contention with gun owners between those who keep "safe queens" and those who prefer to use their old guns. I have to say that unless you are purely collecting, or unless your item is so rare that you may damage something unique in the world, I'd much prefer to get real use out of the item. These things were made to be used as tools, not to sit on a shelf, in my opinion.

It's a First Model Hand Ejector .44 (Triple Lock) pulled out of commercial stock, converted to .455 Webley and provided to the UK in 1914 on an emergency basis at the beginning of WWI. Only 6000 were made, and few survived. Later models shipped to Britain lacked the TL feature. A rare and valuable revolver when you consider a revolver of similar age....now called the Smith Model 10 and all its variants now top 10 million in production.



Here you can see the features unique to triple locks.....the ball detent in the face of the crane and its corresponding notch in the frame beneath the shroud. You can also see the spring-loaded ejector rod catch protruding from the tip of the shroud.

And if you think buggering the barrel pin and the surrounding area around the frame is normal and honest wear and tear, I have this bridge you should look at. Not the least of which is he tried to drive the pin out from the wrong direction. Hence an example for a machinist.

[Joe Cunningham]

Our "ancestors" wouldn't understand our modern idea of honor as not using them. Of course, they probably wouldn't understand the relatively modern idea of making a tool look better than new or putting such effort into the tools we buy as many do, either.

Take care, Mike

Not sure I can agree with this idea that modern cultures are unique in this respect.

In another life, I was an archaeologist and one of the things that always struck me was the number of *ancient* tools we would find with absolutely zero evidence of use. None. Usually they were, aesthetically, the most impressive tools as well, often fashioned with a level of craftsmanship that most would find hard to duplicate today. Sometimes we would find them in more recent levels without any evidence of bioturbation (critters moving dirt around) and on sites with no other evidence of the originating time period. How'd they get there? One idea is that the more recent cultures actually recognized (and collected) the older, high quality tools. They recognized quality when they saw it, and often times the more recent group did not possess the skill level to duplicate that quality.

Humans have been collecting pretty tools for a very long time.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Not sure I can agree with this idea that modern cultures are unique in this respect.

In another life, I was an archaeologist and one of the things that always struck me was the number of *ancient* tools we would find with absolutely zero evidence of use. None. Usually they were, aesthetically, the most impressive tools as well, often fashioned with a level of craftsmanship that most would find hard to duplicate today. Sometimes we would find them in more recent levels without any evidence of bioturbation (critters moving dirt around) and on sites with no other evidence of the originating time period. How'd they get there? One idea is that the more recent cultures actually recognized (and collected) the older, high quality tools. They recognized quality when they saw it, and often times the more recent group did not possess the skill level to duplicate that quality.

Humans have been collecting pretty tools for a very long time.

Perhaps. But there is another explanation (and probably more). That is there have been "exhibition" tools made at least since the 1700s. Likely, by extrapolation, the wealthy may have commissioned and or bought such tools back much further.

But, the Greenslade planes you and I will ever likely see are not of the sort. The objects of RB's thread.

The working stiff's tools, the real user of tools, are those people I do not believe would understand--and they likely didn't then *if* there are tools which never saw use as you say. I know I have never seen pictures of such tools. Really well preserved woodworking tools (the point of my statement) I have seen pictures of are definitely used. Others (the vast majority) are so decaded that it would be impossible to determine use.

Williamsburg once found axe heads in wells. Well preserved. Beautiful examples. The smiths recreated them in every detail. That's when the users of the recreated versions found they weren't worth a crud. Most likely why they were tossed into the well to begin with. So just because a good example is found, it doesn't mean they were "collected" and preserved for posterity because they were great tools.

Unless, of course, you also found written evidence it was so. Else it is daydreaming on the part of the archaeologists. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but it does mean in lieu of written record, all else is a guess.

Take care, Mike

[Peter Quadarella]

I think those were built with .455 chambers and barrels as opposed to truly converted, but yes the triple lock design is considered by many to be the best revolver design of all time (more of a relation to than an ancestor of the Model 10). (Edit: I couldn't resist and looked more into this - it looks like a small number of these were actually converted (~700?) and the rest were built that way) It didn't occur to me to see one on a woodworking forum, very nice!

However, I still think I would feel a great urge to take 'er for a test drive if I owned one myself, even moreso if it were a .44 triple lock (an even more valuable variant, although not as rare). Besides I'm not geared up to reload .455 . You only live once!

There are different schools of thought on this, but wouldn't it be nice to have a beautiful collection of planes or whatever one collects, and be able to say you've made shavings with each and every one? I guess the point is, we could go around in circles on this all day, and at the end of the day, everyone collects/purchases/gathers things for their own reasons.

[Ray Gardiner]

Everyone will have a different take on this, but my view is that old tools should be restored to usable condition.

That is the condition that a good craftsman would maintain his tools in.

I realize that this may reduce "value" in some circumstances, but I think value is really a question of perspective. I wouldn't polish the brass back of a saw to a mirror finish, (well ok, I have done in the past. but now I know better. ) but a good clean and scrub is ok.

As far as the planes, I would restore them to usable condition, sharpen, tune up, polish, what ever it takes to get to a good usable condition.

If you feel unhappy about using a dirty grungy tool, then you should clean it to the level you feel happy about using.

There is a place for museum pieces, and they are a vital part of our history, but history is as much the story of how things are used, not just artifacts frozen at some arbitrary point in time.

Let's skip forward 100 years and look back at these planes, the future woodworker/historian will no doubt appreciate the fact that someone, valued these tools sufficiently to restore them and use them, possibly citing this instance as an example of how early 21st Century woodworkers, cared about recapturing hand crafted woodworking tools and techniques from a earlier time.


Regards
Ray

[Ganthan Rhodes]

Johnny, I think you can take comfort in a few things:

* The woodies cost you less than $10 apiece.
* You like the way they look after you cleaned them up.
* In 100 years when they become scarce, they'll have 100 years worth of patina on them.

I love reading threads on restoration and refurbishment techniques, probably because many people are very passionate in their opinions.

GR

[Wilbur Pan]

Interesting replies, all.

I'm left with the impression that the "value" of patina is still a bit arbitrary if you look at the tool from a functional standpoint. You could just as easily determine that having a plane in as new condition as possible is the desired outcome, which would mean removing patina as it develops. It would also imply that the value of a well used plane with patina would be higher in the collector's market than the same plane in mint condition.

In fact, one could argue that if you are interested in preserving the plane for historic reasons, removing the patina would be warranted if it is obscuring the maker's or owner's mark on the plane, or making it difficult to determine how the plane was made or used in some other manner.

It still seems to me that disparity in prices between new and used wooden planes is a sign that most antique wooden planes may not be as valuable as we may think.

[Greg Stanford]

When I was in college I went w/ a friend to an estate sale. I had no money to spend, I was purely a tag along. We walked through the house & looked around & somebody mentioned there was more "in the shop". Turns out the fellow had been a woodworker. He'd spent years collecting & using tools, the shop was clean & organized & obviously something that he'd cared about & been proud of. It struck me as very sad that nobody valued that life, the tools were sold off, dissipated, he was just gone.

So I think about that guy when I buy tools, I clean 'em up, sharpen, & use them but I like that I can see & sometimes feel where they've been used before. I dont want to erase that person, that past.

I dont see any value in making an old tool look like a new tool, but that's just me.

g

[Bob Smalser]

Wonder how many things worth small change 50 years ago will pay half a year's tuition today?

And when ya sand em boys, be sure to go across the grain like my example. And don't bother cleaning them with 4-ought and solvent first - you'll clog up 4 times the quantity of paper you would otherwise, so be sure and use a coarser paper to prevent that.

Another mark of a craftsman is he knows when to stop.

[Johnny Kleso]

Its a Happy Day

I had asked Seller if he was related Bm Roberts or knew any info of these planes..
Turnes out he is a collector of Civil War stuff and I this is what he sent...


The tools were a gift from Paul Roberts of Gardner St. in Plymouth, Luzerne Co., PA.
He gave them to my wife and me as a gift for helping him clean his basement before moving to a nursing facility. He had a second set, which he gave to a nephew.
The tools belonged to a Paul's grandfather, Benjamin Roberts, born Apr 1841. He was a carpenter by trade.
Paul Roberts passed away 5 Sep 2007 at the age of 86. (His great-grandfather was the magistrate in Plymouth for many years.)


I seen the Beading planes and thought carpenter tools and Beaders have more waer than H&R so this makes sense... I wanted to think they came from a cabinet maker but this is more info than I thought I would get...


As I look back this thread reminds me very much to my first posts several years ago when I just started refinishing metal planes..

It strikes me that it has been a long time since I seen a strong discussion on patina on metal planes, I dont think I'll be changing opinions on cleaning wood planes though

Cleaning wood is not like cleaning metal and re-japanning..

In my mind these planes where full years of heavy basement dirt / coal furnace dust as the patina was more black in color than brown..
I should have tested cleaning one first with MS but thought it would just set the black dust in to the wood pores..

When I test and cleaning the Molding and Beading planes and post the pictures when I am done..

Thanks all for your opinions, I appreciate them much...

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Wonder how many things worth small change 50 years ago will pay half a year's tuition today?

Hasn't that always been true, Bob?

The trick is in the guessing what people will be buying 50 or more years down the road. I mean, there are plenty of rare woodworking tools that go for dirt prices in comparision to relatively non-rare items simply because some yokels decide they have greater value.

But you probably have a much better guesser than I have. Therefore, I won't worry about so-called value and use the tools I own, clean them to please me, etc. Including the molding plane I own that is older than our country, the saws and other planes darn near as old. Might as well. Collectors decided these items have less value than younger widgets. Guess they have a better picker than I have, too.

And when ya sand em boys, be sure to go across the grain like my example. And don't bother cleaning them with 4-ought and solvent first - you'll clog up 4 times the quantity of paper you would otherwise, so be sure and use a coarser paper to prevent that.

Witty retort. Especially seeing how no one here has espoused such a thing. I seem to recall you praising RB for other restorations. Hmm...

Another mark of a craftsman is he knows when to stop.

Yes, quite.

Take care, Mike

[Wilbur Pan]

Wonder how many things worth small change 50 years ago will pay half a year's tuition today?

Hasn't that always been true, Bob?

The trick is in the guessing what people will be buying 50 or more years down the road. I mean, there are plenty of rare woodworking tools that go for dirt prices in comparision to relatively non-rare items simply because some yokels decide they have greater value.

Amen to that. If investing in future antiques were that easy, I would be retired by now given the awesome comic book collection I amassed in the 80's. As it is, I'm still working. I sold the collection in the 90's for a decent amount, and looking at the current prices for some of the titles I had, I would have done just as well to contribute to my 401(k).

(And it was an awesome comic book collection, including 1st printings of all four issues of the Dark Knight Returns. A set goes for about $500-1000 depending on how much of a sucker you are, still nowhere near half a year's tuition.)

[Greg Stanford]

After my Grandmother died, my Father & I were up cleaning out her house. My Brother showed up, looks around & says "I thought Grandma never had much money." My Dad says "Well she didn't." Brother says " How'd she afford all these antiques?"

g

[James Mittlefehldt]

Many moons ago when I was young I used to hang out at auction sales with my dad, and in the late sixties or so, one hot ticket item was those mass produced oak pedestal tables made around the turn of the twentieth century. They routinely went for $100 at the time which was pretty expensive.

Every one was buying those and now they seldom go for much more than that, and on a bad day not even that much.

Another item was those old pine blanket boxes, and there was a cottage industry of people stripping off all that nasty old paint and showing the nice knotty pine. Well the nasty painted ones when you find them are worth a lot more than the refinished ones.

My point, not sure I have one just that I enjoyed thinking back to those aution sales and that very few who thought that they knew then what the future fortunes would be were seldom right.

[Johnny Kleso]

Wilbur,

In the 90's I to got caught up in the crazy or Comic Books and Baseball cards as there was Shows all over the plane every weekend in the ATL area..

I see now that I would be lucky to sell loose cards by the pound and might have problems selling the star cards.. I am almost to the point of just trashing several boxes just to make room as it not worth to sell a box 3,500 cards for $10 and ship them.. I'd just ratter trash the $100-$200 I spent on them than sell'em