Latex paint frustration(s)...

[David Rose]

I'm using Sherwin Willaims Duration Coating on a cedar arbor. The arbor will first be used for a wedding or I would just give up on the problems. The arbor has lots of nooks and crannies for the paint to hide from the light until it gets partially setup. But worse, I am getting runs all over the place! I admit that my lighting is barely adequate as I have a very limited area where I can set up this large a project. But there has to be a better way!

I started with the salesman at SW recommendation of a particular roller. That thing shed like a long haired cat in the spring. It also left a beautiful orange peel (underexageration) surface which we didn't like. So I switched to the next thing on hand which was cheap foam brushes. Brush marks were horrible and runs everywhere. Any place where a corner existed it was difficult to not leave a large lap mark.

I scraped, fingernailed, and sanded as many of the thick spots out that I could find. I missed a lot too. I don't know that this stuff ever sets up enough to sand without balling up. Especially the spots that are thick are slow drying. I need to get done soon.

Off to the borg. Kid behind the counter couldn't believe I even tried to use foam with this thick latex. It's thicker than Titebond glue. He sold me (I bought) a decent nylon/polyester brush. Is the best they had decent? Anyway, that was their best.

I tried applying the stuff full strength after wetting the brush. No real difference was apparent. I thinned it maybe 10%, maybe slightly less, and it helped a little.

Tonight I started looking it over before the third coat. It has hundreds of runs and corner laps and all sort of errors!

Can this stuff (thick latex) be applied with hand tools or does it need to be sprayed someway? I would never try to brush a clear finish over something with contours like this, so I am lost. Should I just ignore all these atrocities or what? I have at least another coat to go and each new coat seems to add more problems.

David

[Wes Bischel]

David,

I don't know what to tell you - reading your post just made me sick because I know how much time you have put into the trellis.

Only thing I can think of right now is using a stripper and take it all off with one of the citrus strippers that allows you to peal layers away - very time consuming and a real mess.

If you can get the surface somewhat smooth, there is a product called Flotrol (or Penetrol - one is for oil based, the other for latex I cannever remember) that helps the paints flow better. The thought is you put less on when the brush marks flow out easily thus preventing runs and sags. I have used the oil product when the weather is getting cold and the paint thickens and won't flow leaving brush marks (or runs when I over compensate for the lack of flow)

I really hope you can get this resolved.

Wes

[Jason Roehl]

Man, David, I wish you were much closer, I'd help you out. My experience with Duration has been quite good--best exterior acrylic "coating" I've ever used (the Sherwin guys corrected me on that--it's not latex, and it's not "paint").

The suggestion that you use Floetrol may be a good one. I've never used it in Duration, but it sounds like you are having problems with the paint flashing off too quickly due to (I assume) warm weather. Floetrol should extend the open time somewhat, allowing you to brush out runs and such.

One common mistake when I see people using a waterbased paint is the tendency to "overwork" the paint. In the days of old, you could brush out oil all day because it stays wet all day. Not so with WB stuff. Exterior paints/coatings can be beyond brushing in as little as a minute on a hot day. In general, I shoot for: a stroke to get a bunch of paint on the surface, a stroke to get the paint where I want it, and a stroke to smooth it out (tipping off). More than that, and you're wasting your time trying to move paint around that you shouldn't be, and causing brush marks.

As for spraying, I honestly can't see Duration working with anything other than an airless sprayer. A trellis with alot of nooks and crannies would be VERY difficult even for someone like me who has run thousands of gallons through an airless. Duration is very finicky with an airless (very easy to get it too thick without noticing until it runs AFTER you walk away). An HVLP or conventional spray setup just wouldn't handle it--you'd have to thin the Duration way too much.

Oh, yeah, WB exterior paint usually won't sand very well in under a month. Best approach is to scrape off runs and sags with a sharp 5-in-1 (a wide chisel would work, too).

Wish you the best, David!

[David Rose]

Ugh! I hope you are wrong about needing to strip, Wes. But if it takes that... Thanks for the tip on the Flotrol.

David

David,

I don't know what to tell you - reading your post just made me sick because I know how much time you have put into the trellis.

Only thing I can think of right now is using a stripper and take it all off with one of the citrus strippers that allows you to peal layers away - very time consuming and a real mess.

If you can get the surface somewhat smooth, there is a product called Flotrol (or Penetrol - one is for oil based, the other for latex I cannever remember) that helps the paints flow better. The thought is you put less on when the brush marks flow out easily thus preventing runs and sags. I have used the oil product when the weather is getting cold and the paint thickens and won't flow leaving brush marks (or runs when I over compensate for the lack of flow)

I really hope you can get this resolved.

Wes

[David Rose]

Hi Jason! I wish you were closer too. You're the guy who turned me onto the "acrylic coating". No hard feelings. Actually, I think you are right about the quality of the stuff if I can just get the application problems figured out. I still puzzle over the fact that the SW guy 100% agreed with you and then suggested the roller. I don't know if it is weather or coating or "applier" (meaning me) problems.

Conditions in the gara... shop where I'm applying this are pretty good, I think. Relative humidity is around 50%, temps are staying right at 65 to 70 and there is no undue air circulation. It *is* flashing off fast though. I barely can tell any difference in what is right behind the brush and how it looks a minute or two later.

I may be rushing things too much as far as getting done goes and getting a little sloppy. Too, the primary light is on a stand that has to be moved to really see into the crevices. I think an area looks good then find a big run or edge lap. Often though, it's right in the lighted area. I'm not a painter, so that may be a lot of it too. This is the first thing that I've done on a "furniture" piece where I wanted to be picky.

I don't know where I came up with a maximum of 10% for thinning of latex. The thinning I did was with water too. I wonder if that is an improper thinner for this stuff. The specs just say "no thinning required". It is working better thinned. Can I thin it more? I can't get SW when they are open very often. Maybe the Floetrol is the answer.

I'll forget the spraying. Thanks for that tidbit too. It sounds like it would be more difficult than learning to brush is.

Is a "5 in one" scraper the regular paint scraper with a handle? I sharpened up some inletting scrapers this afternoon that I think will get into the tight spots.

Thanks for the ideas.

David

Man, David, I wish you were much closer, I'd help you out. My experience with Duration has been quite good--best exterior acrylic "coating" I've ever used (the Sherwin guys corrected me on that--it's not latex, and it's not "paint").

The suggestion that you use Floetrol may be a good one. I've never used it in Duration, but it sounds like you are having problems with the paint flashing off too quickly due to (I assume) warm weather. Floetrol should extend the open time somewhat, allowing you to brush out runs and such.

One common mistake when I see people using a waterbased paint is the tendency to "overwork" the paint. In the days of old, you could brush out oil all day because it stays wet all day. Not so with WB stuff. Exterior paints/coatings can be beyond brushing in as little as a minute on a hot day. In general, I shoot for: a stroke to get a bunch of paint on the surface, a stroke to get the paint where I want it, and a stroke to smooth it out (tipping off). More than that, and you're wasting your time trying to move paint around that you shouldn't be, and causing brush marks.

As for spraying, I honestly can't see Duration working with anything other than an airless sprayer. A trellis with alot of nooks and crannies would be VERY difficult even for someone like me who has run thousands of gallons through an airless. Duration is very finicky with an airless (very easy to get it too thick without noticing until it runs AFTER you walk away). An HVLP or conventional spray setup just wouldn't handle it--you'd have to thin the Duration way too much.

Oh, yeah, WB exterior paint usually won't sand very well in under a month. Best approach is to scrape off runs and sags with a sharp 5-in-1 (a wide chisel would work, too).

Wish you the best, David!

[Chris Padilla]

Definately try the Floetrol...do not thin with water. For spraying and better flow-out and a longer wet-edge, Floetrol is the ticket. The paint just flows so much more nicely.

Good Luck, David.

[David Rose]

Here is a shot of about 6" of the arbor. This is a "worst case". Maybe I am being too picky. But if this was furniture going in my house... it wouldn't.

By the way, don't try spending an hour flattening the back and sharpening an angled scraper, finding out it works, then dropping it on the plastic visqueen covered floor. It *will* land "buttered side down" with no burr to tell which side to work on.

David, who is getting less persnickety as time rolls by

[Dave Anderson NH]

I can't help you with the paint, I'm barely competent at it myself. On your scraper though I have a suggestion. Whenever I get a new card scraper I take and etch or engrave by hand the numbers 1 thru 4 on each of the faces near the edge. After sharpening and putting on the burr, I always start using edge 1 and go in order to 4. It saves trying to figure out which is the sharp edge and which has been dulled by use.

[Byron Trantham]

Here is a shot of about 6" of the arbor. This is a "worst case". Maybe I am being too picky. But if this was furniture going in my house... it wouldn't.

By the way, don't try spending an hour flattening the back and sharpening an angled scraper, finding out it works, then dropping it on the plastic visqueen covered floor. It *will* land "buttered side down" with no burr to tell which side to work on.

David, who is getting less persnickety as time rolls by

David, I don't know about everyone else but that picture looks great. Hey man, you are trying to cover some relatively complex surfaces with a brush/roller! You will get runs and build-ups. Spraying would nice but I think even that technique would certainly be more difficult because of all the surfaces. I think your results look fine, especially if you think this picture represents the "worst case." IMHO

[Chris Padilla]

David,

I'm with Byron. While I can see the drip in the pic, overall it looks like you did a very nice job.

Perhaps you just need to let the first coat dry thoroughly, get some of the 3M sandpaper designed for sanding paint and gently knock back the spots you don't like and then recoat.

Or, perhaps you are trying to put too much paint on with the first coat? Might it go better to put it on kinda light and then go back over it again with 2nd and 3rd coats to fill everything in?

[David Rose]

Dave, that is a tip that will be applied ASAP! I just realized that I have a scrape on the side of a scraper from a file that I have used that way. Of course, I don't consciouly note the mark. It is always after I desperately seek a sharp edge. Great tips are often really simple, aren't they?

David

I can't help you with the paint, I'm barely competent at it myself. On your scraper though I have a suggestion. Whenever I get a new card scraper I take and etch or engrave by hand the numbers 1 thru 4 on each of the faces near the edge. After sharpening and putting on the burr, I always start using edge 1 and go in order to 4. It saves trying to figure out which is the sharp edge and which has been dulled by use.

[David Rose]

Chris and Byron,

Thanks for the encouragement! The posted pic lost some resolution to get it small enough to post so it "smoothed up" a little. There are substantial brush marks too. There are more flaws than just the one drip. I guess I am concerned about light reflection. But really with uniform lighting all around it won't be as big a deal. I just thought of that.

I have been sanding the finish lightly to remove some imperfections. Jason said the stuff needs about 30 days to setup to sand well. With the least "catching" on the finish it balls up and goes to the surface. The scraper does the same but with drips and such, I just clear it off anyway.

The "too much paint in one coat" is where the problem lies I think. The stuff advertises as being "thicker for more flexibility" or something like that. I tried slapping some on and spreading it thinner. It dries so fast (no Floetrol yet) that it is difficult to not get substantial marks.

Thanks everyone. I feel better about the whole deal and have more ideas to try.

David

David,

I'm with Byron. While I can see the drip in the pic, overall it looks like you did a very nice job.

Perhaps you just need to let the first coat dry thoroughly, get some of the 3M sandpaper designed for sanding paint and gently knock back the spots you don't like and then recoat.

Or, perhaps you are trying to put too much paint on with the first coat? Might it go better to put it on kinda light and then go back over it again with 2nd and 3rd coats to fill everything in?

[Richard Allen]

I am wondering what you primed the wood with.

[David Rose]

Richard, I primed with S/W A-100 oil base. SW said the only way they would guarantee the Duration on cedar was with this combo. I know the guarantee won't mean anything to me, but figured that if that is their recommendation it should be worth something.

Do you suspect something because of the primer?

David

I am wondering what you primed the wood with.

[Richard Allen]

Hi David

I would have to think that S/W knows a whole lot more about paint and painting than I ever will.

I was just wondering about the primer because nothing was mentioned.

Thanks