Hand-cut dovetails: A follow-up

[Al Navas]

I thank everyone who read and commented on my previous post about my first hand-cut dovetail experience.

From the update post on my blog: I completed all four corners of what will be a very small box - about the size of the drawers I will be making for my Krenov-inspired cabinet.

The initial set of DTs was set #1. I numbered the remaining three corners, so I would remember the sequence in which I cut the tails and pins on those remaining corners. The following photos show that I did not make good progress with my second and third attempt (excessive paring on the pins). However, on my fourth attempt I was much more careful when paring the pins, and the results show not only much better fit, but the tails and the pins look much better:

This is how all the tails look at this point (you can see the penciled-in numbers in one corner):


1. Corners 1 and 4:





2. Corners 2 and 3:




I also include photos of the pin boards in the article on my blog. My thanks to all for your input, comments, and the suggestions you have given me, as I started this journey!

Still on my to-do list: Glue up the box, and flush all corners, to determine the final look of each corner.

What I must do to improve further:

1. Take my time when paring the pins - this is critical
2. Improve my sawing technique, to reduce the amount of paring required


.

[Floyd Mah]

Al, I can't claim to be an extremely experienced dovetail joint maker, but having made a few joints like yours, I could suggest a few solutions.

It looks like you are having problems marking the parts: with the layout. This can be from using a marking knife that isn't sharp enough and being deflected by the wood. It can also be from not seeing well enough to be able to cut to the line (layout lines not well defined). You can solve this by using a sharper knife and actually using the marking knife to define the edge by doing the initial cut. Then you just chop and pare to the cuts (on the cuts not made by sawing).

Having proven to myself that freehand cutting with the saw wasn't my strength, I cut a guide that I use as a fence when I saw (similar to the marking guide). This get the saw started in the right plane. It's a bit of a cheat, but you can still get the fun of making the cuts by hand.

If the fit isn't great when you are done, study the joint carefully and try to figure which edges can be trimmed without showing. Usually there are a few edges which can be trimmed invisibly so that the fit is better.

Your finished box will end up being the wrong size (too small) when you are done because the cuts are too deep. You can tell by the way the pins and tails protrude beyond the ends of the joint. The problem is that you need to trim them flush, resulting in a too small box when you are done. If you had made the cuts less deep, then you can plane the sides down to the ends of the boards. By not trimming the end-grain, the box will be the right dimension. This would be important in drawer making, where a drawer has to fit inside a recess without too much slop.

My best suggestion is to get the Ian Kirby book, "the Complete Dovetail", ISBN 0-941936-67-8. It's a well-written book and tells you everything you need to know.

[Robert Rozaieski]

2. Improve my sawing technique, to reduce the amount of paring required

This should be your first order of business. You should be shooting to assemble right from the saw. In my experience, if I have to pare the joint, I'm going to end up with a gap. I don't know why, but paring dovetails always seemed to me like an exercise in frustration. Going from saw to assembly has always been more successful for me.

When ever I see folks having trouble hand sawing joinery (DT or M&T), it is usually due to lack of practice sawing. Please don't take this personally, this is just a generalization I've come to observe from my years on these boards. My guess is that you did all your rough dimensioning of your parts with a table saw. Am I right ?

Please allow me to make a suggestion, one that I have made here before. Get yourself a length of pine 1x material (maybe 2-3' long), a marking gauge and a rip saw. Scribe a line along the edge of the pine board about 3/4" from the edge, take your rip saw and rip the piece free. Joint the edge of the main board, scribe another line and rip it again. Do this several times and pay attention to how you are sawing. Notice what saw position makes the saw cut faster, track a line better, veer off the line more, how you are correcting your cut, etc. When you can consistently track a long straight line with your rip saw, then try the dovetails again and see if you don't have better luck assembling right from the saw.

Anytime I find myself having trouble with my joinery, it is usually because I haven't done any sawing in awhile. I do all my sawing with hand saws so I do have a lot of practice, however, if I don't saw for a few days/weeks, I get rusty. Ripping a few pieces of scrap always gets the muscle memory back and improves my joinery cuts. Try it and I gaurantee you will be sawing better joints in no time.

[Wilbur Pan]

I can't remember where I picked up this tip, but it works for me. If you find that your dovetail joints are too tight, one inclination is to pare away at the sides of the pins, which it looks like you are doing. This is going to cause all sorts of problems, because there's no way to pare the sides of multiple pins and still keep the same angle that you marked and sawed.

Instead, try paring away at the baseline a little more, and leave the sides of the pins alone. This will provide more room for the tails without altering the geometry of your pins.

[Wiley Horne]

Hi Al,

It's coming along. Let me ask you a couple of things:

1. Are you going tails first or pins first? And how are you aligning the boards to transfer the marks from the first board to the second?

2. Are you sawing fat, figuring on paring later? Or are you ending up with one or more pins slightly 'offset' to its corresponding tail, so that you have to pare one side of the pin to accommodate the offset?

The reason I ask, is that the center pin seems to consistently have a bit more air than the others. Which makes me wonder (as Floyd did) whether the sticks are getting a little out of alignment during the transfer of marks.

All this stuff is easy to fix as soon as you figure out what is happening.

Wiley

[Mark Roderick]

I'll second the advice above:

1. If you have to pare much material with a chisel, you're probably not going to be happy with the results. I have never been able to pare a joint successfully, except for tiny adjustments. I am much more successful when I get it right off the saw.

2. Practice, practice, practice. I'm about to make a jewelry box with dovetail joints. I haven't cut dovetails for a while. So last night I made up a bunch of boards with the intention of making dozens and dozens of practice joints, using a little engineer's square to align the saw with the board before starting the cut and thereby re-teaching myself what square looks like. My brain must be misaligned inside my head because what looks square to my eye never is.

Also, make sure you have a decent dovetail saw. It really does make a difference. I started out using a Freud, which was okay, but years ago I upgraded to the Mercedes Benz of dovetail saws, the Lie-Nielsen, and my ability to cut a straight line suddenly improved enormously!

I don't know if anybody has mentioned this, but the current issue of Fine Woodworking has a primer on cutting dovetails, with some really useful tips.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Wilbur,

As regards adjusting a too tight fitting pin board.

Perhaps even easier than deepening the baseline is doing something I believe Adam C. mentioned, which is to use a fine-set smoother and take a swipe off the inside of the pin board. I cut a trial pin board a skosh too fat on purpose after I read that. Taking a swipe or two with my smoother finely set ensured I could sneak up on an even fit.

Take care, Mike

[Robert Rozaieski]

Wilbur,

As regards adjusting a too tight fitting pin board.

Perhaps even easier than deepening the baseline is doing something I believe Adam C. mentioned, which is to use a fine-set smoother and take a swipe off the inside of the pin board. I cut a trial pin board a skosh too fat on purpose after I read that. Taking a swipe or two with my smoother finely set ensured I could sneak up on an even fit.

Take care, Mike

I hadn't heard of this before but it makes perfect sense and gaurantees that one won't change the angle of the pins. Makes me want to try it out right now .

[Joe Cunningham]

I don't know if anybody has mentioned this, but the current issue of Fine Woodworking has a primer on cutting dovetails, with some really useful tips.

They also have a video on the website which I found quite useful as well.

I need to get a decent dovetail saw. Maybe Santa will be generous this year...