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Thread: Joinery saws, it gets down to teeth, depth and length

  1. #1

    Joinery saws, it gets down to teeth, depth and length

    No matter what name a saw has, there are really only a few specifics that determine which saw you might use.

    1) teeth, possibly the most important, IMO. these are either rip or crosscut for the most part, although saw makers tend to vary the amount of rake, fleam, and points for a given saw plate. There is plenty of information online to understand all about teeth.

    2) depth, how much depth do you need for your cut? What type of stock do you normally work? Larger stock will require the ability to cut deeper, as much of joinery is a combination of the stock to be joined. This is not so much a problem with saws that do not have a back on them, but most saws used for joinery have backs on them, although not all. They will be limited to the depth of cut they are capable of.

    3) length, how long a blade do you want on the saw. Some sizes have been common over the past, but no 2 people work alike. Some folks like shorter saws as they claim they are easier to control, and others like longer saws as they say it gives them more cutting power per stroke. I have come to the conclusion that if a saw is difficult to control it was possibly designed wrong, and I tend to prefer longer saws. But pick the saws that you like, not ones that someone else likes.

    Most importantly, acquire the types of saws that you will use. Figure out what type of stock you will be using, and whether you will be cutting across or with the grain, and use the proper saw for that task. There is very little joinery that you can use but one saw on, much of it requires both rip and crosscut teeth. Use the proper saw for the task. If you use a rip tooth to cut across the grain, you will learn quickly that it tears the ends of the grain and makes them fluffy. If you insist on using a rip toothed saw to cut across the grain, in most cases you will be using a hand plane if you would like to have a good, tight fit. Torn/fluffy ends tend to compress over time, allowing the joint to loosen up, in my experience. This is why I suggest using a proper saw.

    All woodworkers tend to work a bit differently, so if you take advice from someone, please tailor it to your needs specific. Just because someone has and uses a specific set of saws doesn't mean those saws will work for you.

    I rarely use a full size handsaw, for instance. I dimension most all of my material with machines. So, there is little use for a full size handsaw in my shop. I only have a single full size handsaw, it's an old Craftsman from the 50s most likely. If I was to take advice from someone that keeps full size hand saws in their quiver, and go buy them, I will not use them. Again, use the saws that fit the task at hand.

    Lastly, handsaws are not rocket science, you can improvise and use ones that are not specific to the task at hand, just like any other tool such as a chisel or hand plane. There is no need to pontificate and buy a bunch of saws that you will most likely not use. It seems a common mis-belief that if you own the same saws as someone else, you will be able to produce the same type of projects. I think this has little to do with it, but if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. And remember that any given saw can be refiled to posses the type of teeth you want. If you have a rip saw, it can be filed crosscut and vice versa...so even if you do make a mistake, you can always change it with a little time and a file (you do file your own handsaws, don't you? ). Happy sawing!
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff View Post
    Most importantly, acquire the types of saws that you will use.
    [snip]
    (you do file your own handsaws, don't you? ). Happy sawing!
    Yes, I do file my own handsaws, can't afford to pay some one else to do it.

    I tend to acquire all that SWMBO will let me. If she ever leaves me, I guess you could say I saw it coming.

    jim

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Yes, I do file my own handsaws, can't afford to pay some one else to do it.
    Aside from being able to afford it, I doubt most would send out their hand plane blades, or chisel blades to be sharpened for them, and saws are no different. Sharpening a handsaw is a skill that should be possessed by all woodworkers, IMO. This is a basic task that so many people are somehow afraid to take on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    I tend to acquire all that SWMBO will let me. If she ever leaves me, I guess you could say I saw it coming.
    *groan*
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  4. #4
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    Sources

    Really good advice. I'm looking at getting a good dovetail saw soon and I have a few old saws that i'd like to tune up, what would be a good book or other source for me to look into?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Thigpen View Post
    Really good advice. I'm looking at getting a good dovetail saw soon and I have a few old saws that i'd like to tune up, what would be a good book or other source for me to look into?
    Clay,

    This is a common question, and I must say that I might not give you the right answer, but I recommend folks not get too caught up with too much details, get a file for the size teeth you want to start with, and make it simple on yourself.

    As a first step, take a few cuts with your saw, just so you have a feel for how it cuts. You will need to read some to understand that you will need to file every other tooth, flip the saw, and file every other tooth again to sharpen them all. The reason is that the teeth are set to alternate to each side and that is what creates the kerf. I recommend this text on the Vintage Saws site that Pete Taran runs. But see the Chris Gochner video for a good explanation as well. (see below)

    However, please make it simple on yourself. If you don't have a saw vise you can use a couple pieces of wood to sandwich the blade in between most woodworking vises, or build a simple saw vise yourself.

    As a start, just go through each tooth, file each one the proper angle. I recommend a rip tooth pattern to start, to make it simple on yourself. They get filed at 90 degrees to the saw, with a 8 degree rake on the cutting edge. Now, take the same saw and take a couple cuts again. Assure yourself that you haven't destroyed your saw. Chances are you will find out that it cuts better than it did. Do the same thing again, sharpen every other tooth, flip it over, and every other tooth again to sharpen them all...(always sharpen the teeth that are pointing towards you).

    Filing teeth is something that doesn't feel comfortable to most folks, so don't feel bad if it feels awkward. The reason I suggest to just file is so that you can start to get a feel for it.

    Once you get to that point that you start to feel comfortable with the filing, then you might want to try jointing the teeth slightly, and filing the flat to create a crisp tooth.

    You can let all the details distract you from doing the actual sharpening, you have points of the teeth, rip/xcut, rake, fleam, jointing, shaping, sharpening. If you try to take all of this on at once it will be like any other task in woodworking and will overload you and possibly confuse you.

    I do highly recommend using a file handle, it is quite dangerous and you can stab your palm easily if you do not.

    This Chris Gochner video is pretty good which is available also. This will give you a good idea and Chris explains it pretty good.

    Remember, as a recommendation, I suggest you start simple, only sharpen the teeth without changing too much, they will be what they are when done. Even if they looked like a roller coaster to start, they will cut better most likely.

    Some other sites I recommend are Leif Hanson's site - Norse Woodsmith, Bob Smalser's Sharpening Handsaws (here's Bob's Advanced Sharpening, here), and for files/supplies I prefer Tools For Working Wood, as well as LN, LV, or Vintage Saws for files.

    HTH (and doesn't confuse you )
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  6. #6
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    For me, learning to file has been the key fundemental in understanding/enjoying handsaws. And though I'm not all that quick at filing, being able to distinguish when you have too much/too little set, etc--are skills I am gaining as I experiment in filing different profiles.

  7. #7
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    Good post.

    I couldn't agree more.

    - jbd in Denver (aka John Dykes)

  8. #8
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    Sharpening is a skill I intend to pick up, once I get out from under all the projects I'm supposed to finish this winter.

    In the mean time, I guess I'll keep using a service.
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  9. #9
    Excellent write-up Alan! I will offer the following additional information for those who are still on the fence when it comes to choosing a proper saw (or any tool for that matter) for their style of work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff View Post
    Most importantly, acquire the types of saws that you will use. Figure out what type of stock you will be using, and whether you will be cutting across or with the grain, and use the proper saw for that task.
    Excellent point! I equate saws to hand planes. You need different ones based on what YOU build and how YOU work. There is no one size fits all, but you don't need to have all sizes either . You need to decide what you need based on how you work and what you build.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff View Post
    If you use a rip tooth to cut across the grain, you will learn quickly that it tears the ends of the grain and makes them fluffy. If you insist on using a rip toothed saw to cut across the grain, in most cases you will be using a hand plane if you would like to have a good, tight fit. Torn/fluffy ends tend to compress over time, allowing the joint to loosen up, in my experience. This is why I suggest using a proper saw.
    You can use a fine rip tooth across the grain if you score a deep line with your marking knife first. No, it won't be as nice as a cross cut filed saw, as Alan mentions, but it may have been done this way historically (there isn't really much historical evidence that early shops had cross filed saws, but it may be one of those situations where it was just an assumption that any crafstman worth his salt knew the difference between a rip filed and croos cut filed saw; some theorize that saws may have been provided to the cabinetmaker unfiled so that he could decide for himself how he wanted it filed; the jury is still out on this one). The loose [tenon] joint problem can be solved by using a mechanical connection such as a drawbore and peg or through wedging. Again, this was historically done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff View Post
    (you do file your own handsaws, don't you? ). Happy sawing!
    Wouldn't have it any other way!

    The one point from Alan's post that everyone needs to take home is that each of us needs to decide what's best for our methods and projects as none of us works in an identical manner to any one else. Not unless you are apprenticing under a master cabinetmaker who insists you do so .

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Mason View Post
    For me, learning to file has been the key fundemental in understanding/enjoying handsaws. And though I'm not all that quick at filing, being able to distinguish when you have too much/too little set, etc--are skills I am gaining as I experiment in filing different profiles.
    Honestly, filing handsaws is not a natural task for most folks, it just feels uncomfortable when you start, IMO. This is one of those tasks that you really need keep plugging away at, and it gets more comfortable. After a while more starts to sink in, and the skill improves. This is exactly why I suggest that people just get a file and take a couple strokes on each tooth to get themselves familiar with it.

    As you are finding out, the rake and/or fleam can add just a touch to the tooth that makes it feel better for the task at hand.

    John, for some reason we were not meeting each in the other thread, but I think you would agree with most of my thoughts. Some were out of context, unfortunately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Rozaieski View Post
    Excellent point! I equate saws to hand planes. You need different ones based on what YOU build and how YOU work. There is no one size fits all, but you don't need to have all sizes either . You need to decide what you need based on how you work and what you build.
    Yes, all very true. My main point though was that all saws can be filed either xcut or rip, when you get down to it a saw is only a plate with teeth on it, and how you file it depends on what task you may have at hand. While it is not common for people to change a saw from rip to xcut, people do that and I have myself. It's a lot of work going back the other way, from xcut to rip, so this is something that people agonize over, myself included. If you own a retoother it makes the procedure less painful, at the expense of loosing some amount of blade depth (possibly 1/8"-1/4" that the retoother will chew up).
    quote=Robert Rozaieski;958275]You can use a fine rip tooth across the grain if you score a deep line with your marking knife first.[/quote]
    This is kinda like a piece of the gray area., because with fine teeth you can use either a xcut or rip, when they get that small it doesn't matter as much. It will still leave the ends frayed in my experience, but it is more acceptable.

    Many of the dovetail saws are filed xcut, and some folks do add a bit of fleam to their rip dovetail saws, it really starts to get down to preference, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Rozaieski View Post
    The one point from Alan's post that everyone needs to take home is that each of us needs to decide what's best for our methods and projects as none of us works in an identical manner to any one else. Not unless you are apprenticing under a master cabinetmaker who insists you do so .
    Yes, a saw is just a plate with teeth as I describe above, it can be used either xcut or rip, it just depends on how you file it. One can file a paint scraper and have a fine working saw, it really is that simple. It is all the angles, tooth patterns, rake, fleam, etc...that really confuse folks. Start out simple and just get yourself to file if you don't (not pointed at you directly Robert), and you will start to feel more comfortable with it.

    You do not need a lot of expensive saws, although it's always nice to have quality tools, I won't deny, but you can find several saws on the used market to fill out a small quiver of saws for general use, that will take care of most all tasks at hand.

    Most everyone will need at least a rip and a xcut saw. A 10"-14" rip saw with about 2 1/2" - 3" of cutting depth and a similar xcut saw is pretty versatile. You can even cut dovetails with the rip saw, no problem. You can add a dovetail saw later, a longer/deeper rip, or even full size hand saws if you have the need. The bottom line is that it is just a saw plate with teeth on it, and even those can/will change with a file.

    I would like to add one piece of advice to this post. If you own a quality saw like a Wenzloff, LN, Adria or similar, do not be afraid to learn to sharpen on it. You can always send it out to get resharpened if you destroy it, but don't be afraid, as I point out you will most likely only make it cut better (even if it doesn't look better to you). Over time you will continue to get better and more comfortable, and there's a great deal of pride that a craftsman can take in the fact that they do sharpen their own handsaws. It is no different than a chisel or a hand plane, and most people wouldn't think of sending those tools out to be sharpened by someone else.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  11. #11
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    I recommend this text on the Vintage Saws site that Pete Taran runs.
    This is the site that prompted me to learn. On my first saw using the methods described at Vintage Saws, I was amazed at how little time it took and how well the saw cut. Before sharpening my own saw, I thought it was me not steering the saw correctly. After sharpening, I realized all the saws I had used before were not properly tuned. Sure turns up the enjoyment of woodworking to have saws that cut straight.

    Sharpening is a skill I intend to pick up, once I get out from under all the projects I'm supposed to finish this winter.

    In the mean time, I guess I'll keep using a service.
    The time it takes to learn to sharpen a saws is probably less than the time it would take to pack the saw and mail it out.

    jim

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    The time it takes to learn to sharpen a saws is probably less than the time it would take to pack the saw and mail it out.
    jim
    I have heard that before. Hmm. Maybe we'll have to exchange sharpening for turning advice. If there is any I have that you don't already know...
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Herrmann View Post
    I have heard that before. Hmm. Maybe we'll have to exchange sharpening for turning advice. If there is any I have that you don't already know...
    Gary,

    I don't know if Jim exaggerates, but it is true that you could file the saw in the time it takes to pack it, but in the beginning people are uncertain, and because of such they take longer to do something.

    What really should be pointed out is that you can make it more enjoyable by having a comfortable environment to sharpen in. Prior to watching the Tom Law video I was always trying to attach my saw vise to the bench and file standing, but the height was never correct. I really like to be comfortable, sitting in a chair, preferably with good light.

    For me it makes a big difference to take the time and setup the environment properly.

    I usually mark the tips with a magic marker, and often will dot every other tooth on dovetail saws, along the side. I do this so I know which tooth I'm filing, as once you get going it's easy to loose track. If you do that it's no big deal, the saw will still cut fine. I just like my file work to be correct if possible.

    I also use an OptiVisor, with 2.5x magnification. You can get this style from Harbor Freight cheap also. If you are in Silicon Valley, Action over on Lawrence Expressway in Sunnyvale has some for about $4-$5. I have always wanted to try this style of magnifying lamp, but haven't.

    Now, the reason I like to be comfortable, have good lighting, and such, is that when I file I like to concentrate and focus on the teeth I'm filing. I don't like to watch a chart, or some aerodynamic attachment on the end of the file, that type of stuff seems to distract me, I have a hard enough time keeping track of the tooth I'm filing. We all work different though, and a lot of people find value in those attachments.

    I actually file saws at a section of my desk sitting in a computer chair.

    Would really like to create a new saw vise, I have a few ideas that would create a modern saw vise, I just continue to use the vintage klunkers that are readily available on the used market. We have the technology to create a better saw vise, the answers are out there... They are fairly easy to make decent vises out of wood, but still I think we can do better.

    Ok, enough talk/type, I need to go work on a new/longer fixture to slot handsaw backs, and a fixture to slot my split-nut washers. I might slot a brass back also, if I have time.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff View Post
    I have always wanted to try this style of magnifying lamp, but haven't.
    If and when you do, spend enough money for a good one. I have a lamp similar to the one you pictured - fortunately, picked up at a garage sale for $5, so no big investment - on which the lens has so much distortion and flare it's like being underwater in bright sunlight. It's OK in the very very center of the lens, but anything an inch or so away from that center starts getting strange looking.

    I understand decent ones go for about $100-125. One of those is on my list, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff View Post
    I have a few ideas that would create a modern saw vise...
    I want to say one word to you. Just one word. Lasers.

  15. #15
    Bill,

    That is one thing that has me holding off from buying one. The ones from Harbor Freight are pretty cheap, and I would like a piece of quality lighting for that purpose if I was to buy one.

    I don't know if drafting supply stores would be a good place or not, but I think they have such magnification lighting available for the desks.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

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