Behlen Rock Hard Table Top Finish

[Bill Arnold]

Hiya, Folks.

I've searched the archives and didn't find an answer to a question I have. There's a lot of good information on here about the Behlen finish, but my question is: Can it be sprayed?

We're starting a partial kitchen update that includes the following:
- cut down a cabinet over the range to allow room for a microwave oven.
- having DuPont Zodiaq countertops installed on everything but an island.
- I'm building a new top for the island using Mappa Burl with a black walnut frame. Overall size of the island top is 68" by 26"; the veneered panel will be 61" by 21". This will be the application for Behlen.

OK, so now I'll toss in a design question. Our cabinets are red oak with a medium brown finish. I want the frame for the island to be darker, thus the black walnut. I'm open to other suggestions for a wood to coordinate with the red oak, but be darker naturally. I plan to apply a light-to-moderate stain/dye to the assembled panel after it's completed, so the wood for the frame needs to be moderate-to-dark itself.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[Luis Oliveira]

If you are refering to the Behlen dyes products, In my opinion, you can only spray them, this product dries very fast and if you try to brush it or use a pad you will never get the color even on all cabinets.

[Robert Payne]

Behlens Rock Hard Tabletop Varnish is not one of their dye products (that is Solarlux) and as a short oil varnish, cannot be sprayed as you will end up with bubbles in the finish. I spoke to a Behlens/Mohawk rep before I used it the first time. The surface must be sanded to at least 220 grit and dust free. I've used it on several projects and apply a 50:50 cut of RH Varnish and Behlens RH Reducer with a very good bristle brush as a sealer coat first. Let it dry 24 hours and then lightly sand and wipe off dust with clean tack cloth. I usually apply three finish coats, cutting up to 10% with reducer for improved flow, but always with a very good and well cleaned brush. Do not let the varnish dry on the brush cristles before cleaning or that will get into your next coat as little nibs that will drive you nuts (DAMHIKT). This is a high gloss finish, but it can be made into a satin finish with very fine grit paper (800-1500 grit) or rottenstone. It is very waterproof and very durable.

Here is an example on an 8-foot counter of Bubinga (I took this before I rubbed it out to a satin finish for the client)



and on African Mahogany for a 30-case Wine Cellar I built for another client...

[Jim Becker]

Bill, do remember that black walnut will get lighter over time...not darker like most species. Depending on the finish you use, it may become a very lovely honey brown.

[Bill Arnold]

Originally Posted by Robert Payne

... Behlens Rock Hard Tabletop Varnish ... a short oil varnish, cannot be sprayed as you will end up with bubbles in the finish. ... It is very waterproof and very durable.

Robert,

Thank you for your input. I still have much to learn about how to use different finishes, as you can tell. From the bit of research I had done, it seemed there was a general consensus that BRH was an excellent selection for a countertop. It's obvious that I will need to practice my brush technique and splurge on some decent brushes!

[Jim Becker]

Bill, let me add the opinion that you really shouldn't want to spray anything oil-based...these finishes dry so slowly that the icky-sticky over spray can be a real issue. Further, the time between coats is much, much longer and that can get to be a "cleaning" issue. Spraying is best for finishes that dry relatively quickly and can be re-coated with frequency.

[Bill Arnold]

Originally Posted by Jim Becker

Bill, do remember that black walnut will get lighter over time...not darker like most species. Depending on the finish you use, it may become a very lovely honey brown.

Jim,

Thanks for the reminder. I have considered that and black walnut is darker than I'd like to have in this application. It's characteristic of lightening over time will, hopefully, provide the contrast I seek.

The dilemma I have is choosing a wood for the border that will give me the contrast I seek without having to stain/dye it after assembly. To make clamping easier, I want to leave the frame pieces square. Then, I'll profile the frame which would remove any staining I'd do prior to glue-up of the frame and veneered panel.

Maybe I'm just having a brain cramp at the moment and I appreciate your patience.

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Robert,
Nice on the Varnish top. How did you get that high gloss shine? Did you start by sanding and what grit. What was the last grit and did you use polish? The reason I ask is because I used the Behlen for 7 coats each one I cut with the reducer 15%. I'm waiting a month to let it fully cure and gas out. I understand if it's not fully dry it will scratch.
Thanks Brian

[Larry Fox]

Bill - you might want to look at Target Coatings wb conversion varnish. It is easy to spray, available in multiple sheens and is very durable. There is a document by Jerry Work on the Target site in the instructions section which discusses the various finishes and recommends their CV product where you need durability.

[Robert Payne]

Originally Posted by Brian Schursky

Hi Robert,
Nice on the Varnish top. How did you get that high gloss shine? Did you start by sanding and what grit. What was the last grit and did you use polish? The reason I ask is because I used the Behlen for 7 coats each one I cut with the reducer 15%. I'm waiting a month to let it fully cure and gas out. I understand if it's not fully dry it will scratch.
Thanks Brian

Brian,

The shine on both of these surfaces is "out of the can" shine when these pictures were taken -- no polishing at all. I put some of this same product on our kitchen table just under 4 years ago and it still shines like that today. In order to get a satin finish, I sanded the kitchen Bubinga top after a 5-day cure starting with 800 grit paper in my 5" ROS -- wiped off the dust with clean rag dampened with Reducer and let dry for an hour; repeated with 1,000 grit, 1,200 and 1,500 grit. Finish was a beautiful satin, but the depth of the grain still showed beautifully in the Bubinga. I've never had scratching problems after a week of cure time.

[Bill Arnold]

Originally Posted by Larry Fox

Bill - you might want to look at Target Coatings wb conversion varnish. It is easy to spray, available in multiple sheens and is very durable. There is a document by Jerry Work on the Target site in the instructions section which discusses the various finishes and recommends their CV product where you need durability.

Larry,

This might be the way to go since I want to start changing to waterborne finishes anyway. Since their CV is a pre-cat product, what is the shelf life?

[Brian Schursky]

Hi Robert,
Is it possable to get a high gloss shine with higher grit and then polish?
I have a obital sander but I cant find sand paper with high grit. I do have flat square sand paper that will fit on a square sander I have.
Brian

[Jim Becker]

Originally Posted by Bill Arnold

Since their CV is a pre-cat product, what is the shelf life?

Unlike their solvent based namesakes, the water borne products are all acrylics and the names often represent the manufacturer's work at getting certain characteristics from the finish through formulation and other techniques. USL is not really "lacquer", for example, but has the burn in characteristic of solvent based lacquers. Target's Hybrivar actually is an alkyd varnish emulsion. (very nice product) The Emtech Pre-cat CV product has a stated shelf life of 12 months. It also uses the emulsion technique to bring the CV to a water borne product.

[Bill Arnold]

Jim,

Thanks for the information about the waterborne products. I had researched the USL product before and am planning to use it on furniture going forward. EM8000cv seems to be the way to go for my kitchen island top.

Actually, I'm finally getting to a point where I can spend more time in the shop. Over the past many months, I've dropped a number of trees and cleared a jungle of brush and vines along the back of our lot. I'm finishing a 20' by 12' building that is primarily storage for lawn equipment. All of these other projects have been necessary but have severely limited my "real" woodworking.