What's all this I hear about a Table Saw replacing a Jointer?

[Nick Sorenson]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

EDIT (my use for the jointer added):

By the way, the reason I ask... I build electric guitars for a living. I'm using these tools to prepare blanks. The blanks are ripped and edge jointed to have two 7" wide x ONLY 19" long boards glued edge to edge to make a 14" x 19" blank in 8/4 stock lumber. Right now I have a cheapo table saw and a nice jointer. The thing I don't like is that I have to make adjustments on the jointer occasionally. It's an old jointer and though a good quality one (old crescent tool company), it's old! So... I'd like to simplify and just have one good table saw. All boards need to have a very clean glue line nice and tight with no light passing through. I can get this with the jointer. I'd like to have a table saw do this if it's truly possible. I recently had a friend (the cab shop guy mentioned) offer to sell me a nice powermatic table saw. This is what got my brain turning.

[John Harden]

No, its not as simple as that. How would you joint the face of a 6 foot long, 8" wide, 8/4 plank of cherry on a table saw?

Don't believe everything you hear.

Regards,

John

[Mike Heidrick]

Should be just mostly edge jointing I would think - not face jointing for the most part.

Are you asking how they get a straight edge or a good clean edge to glue up with?

I would believe they have tuned up saws for the most part and decent blades.

[Phil Thien]

I have been at a lumber yard and witnessed a number of small cabinet shops pay to have lumber surfaced two sides to 3/4" using the helical planer. So if they have a straight ripping jig, they could probably do w/o a jointer for a lot of their work.

I guess it is also possible that their glue lines are U-G-L-Y.

[harry strasil]

try it ye might be surprised.

[Rick Fisher]

If a Cabinet shop had a Euro slider, with a shoe ... they could use it to cut a straight edge on lumber. Removing the need to edge joint..

Still not going to do much for the face...

Of course.. if they did that.. they would have to face joint first...

Which would mean it would be easier to just edge joint.. rather than take the wood over to the slider..

Which means I have little or no idea ..

Sorry..


Phil.. Having the wood milled on both sides with a Helical planer.. would be .. okay.. but not great... If the wood where pretty flat.. but still not a great way to go..

[Ed Hazel]

Originally Posted by Nick Sorenson

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

Yes it is I use a glue line rip blade from Freud.

Obviously this only for edges.
I get my wood S2S and straight line ripped one edge.

[Randal Stevenson]

The jointer is needed not so much for edge jointing but face jointing prior to planing. (all about speed verse using planer sleds)
If a jointer were only used for edge jointing, there would be TON's of 1" wide models (and cheaper blades).
Years back, I attended a woodworking show, with a product and its originator, the jointability. RBI (bought out and in transition) bought him out and raised the price a year later. Routers, circular saws, handplanes, electric planes and tablesaws have and all can be used for edge jointing. If you have a good source for cheap rough cut wood, a jointer and planer will save you money (but take more time). For cabinet shops, it makes more sense to by S2S (surfaced two sides) and maybe thicknessed woods, and go from there.

[Tony Bilello]

Originally Posted by Nick Sorenson

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

I had a professional cabinet shop/furniture making business in Arkansas and Ms. with no joiner. I recently moved to Texas and opened another woodworking business this past June. I bought a great used 8" joiner that I couldnt turn down for $300 in perfect working order. I still havent used it yet.
When I buy my hardwoods I have the lumber yard surface 2 sides and straightline rip one edge. My boards are always very flat. I have them plane the boards to the point where the grain is just visable to see what I have and all the same thickness. My edge joining is done on the table saw. With a good saw and a good blade, you can get a perfect edge. That becomes most evident in my scraps that I use for turning when I add 'pinstripes'. When you go through the whole thichness of a bowl, any out of whack edging will show up and mine never does.
I also now have a 20" planer but use it only for finish planing. It is not cost effective to plane, flatten and straightline rip my own lumber.
The secret is to start out buying quality hardwoods from a reputable dealer which will usually come at a premium price and have a good table saw and a good blade. Looking for discount lumber and tools just wont work.
I did the same thing even when I was a hobbyist. I learned early on that I could spend my time building furniture or spend it planing, flattening and joining. There is nothing wrong with the latter, it's just a matter of what you want to do.

[Tom Veatch]

Originally Posted by Nick Sorenson

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

For edge jointing, a jointer is convenient, but not necessary. A jig or carrier (or sliding table) on a table saw can give you a straight edge even starting from a waney edge. (I would mention a #6, 7, 8 Jointer plane, but this is the power tool forum, and that comment would belong in the Neander area.)

If you edge joint the board on a jointer, the opposite side should be done on a table saw with the jointed edge against the fence. You can't joint opposite edges of a board on a jointer and reliably keep the edges parallel.

[John Harden]

Originally Posted by Tony Bilello

I had a professional cabinet shop/furniture making business in Arkansas and Ms. with no joiner. I recently moved to Texas and opened another woodworking business this past June. I bought a great used 8" joiner that I couldnt turn down for $300 in perfect working order. I still havent used it yet.
When I buy my hardwoods I have the lumber yard surface 2 sides and straightline rip one edge. My boards are always very flat. I have them plane the boards to the point where the grain is just visable to see what I have and all the same thickness. My edge joining is done on the table saw. With a good saw and a good blade, you can get a perfect edge. That becomes most evident in my scraps that I use for turning when I add 'pinstripes'. When you go through the whole thichness of a bowl, any out of whack edging will show up and mine never does.
I also now have a 20" planer but use it only for finish planing. It is not cost effective to plane, flatten and straightline rip my own lumber.
The secret is to start out buying quality hardwoods from a reputable dealer which will usually come at a premium price and have a good table saw and a good blade. Looking for discount lumber and tools just wont work.
I did the same thing even when I was a hobbyist. I learned early on that I could spend my time building furniture or spend it planing, flattening and joining. There is nothing wrong with the latter, it's just a matter of what you want to do.

Sorry Tony, but if you're buying wood S3S and thinking it is flat and square, you're mistaken. Sure, it might be close enough for the type and quality of work you prefer to do, but most all wood I see in lumber yards is in need of face jointing. These boards don't get used in my projects until they have been properly milled by me.

Lumber yards don't joint faces of boards. They plane them, so whatever cup, twist, or bow that was there before the planer is still there afterwards. Far better to buy the wood rough, not pay extra to have it surfaced or straight lined, then use the proper tools in your shop to make the board truly square.

I have no doubt that many cabinet shops operate exactly as you describe as what they produce is good enough for them and their clients and would never be considered fine woodworking. Most custom furniture makers I know would never dream of such a thing.

To each his own I suppose.

A table saw will easily make a glue line, but it will not face joint boards. Simple as that. Two very different tools.

Regards,

John

[Tony Bilello]

Originally Posted by John Harden

Sorry Tony, but if you're buying wood S3S and thinking it is flat and square, you're mistaken. Sure, it might be close enough for the type and quality of work you prefer to do, but most all wood I see in lumber yards is in need of face jointing. These boards don't get used in my projects until they have been properly milled by me.

Lumber yards don't joint faces of boards. They plane them, so whatever cup, twist, or bow that was there before the planer is still there afterwards. Far better to buy the wood rough, not pay extra to have it surfaced or straight lined, then use the proper tools in your shop to make the board truly square.

I have no doubt that many cabinet shops operate exactly as you describe as what they produce is good enough for them and their clients and would never be considered fine woodworking. Most custom furniture makers I know would never dream of such a thing.

To each his own I suppose.

A table saw will easily make a glue line, but it will not face joint boards. Simple as that. Two very different tools.

Regards,

John

John
Since we dont live in the same area, you have no idea of the quality of wood that I buy. It sounds like most of your lumber comes from an inferior source and you have no idea what quality lumber looks like. I also think that you joiners and planers and not quite as good as the $50,000 stuff that the lumber yards own Then again, maybe they are.
I see that you are a contributor and therefore are allowed to post albums of your work. I am sure it is quality stuff. I posted several albums and noticed that you have a minimal profile with no photos. Please enlighten me.

[J.R. Rutter]

In the context of the original question, I'm with Tony. If you need to make a serious living woodworking then you need to minimize stock prep. Yes, it is possible to produce flat stuff with no glue lines to speak of and never involve a jointer. So can a cabinetmaker say that with a straight face? sure.

When you need to make 200 cabinet doors at a whack, it is much easier to buy gang ripped blanks and run them through a moulder. The straightest pieces coming out are also the most likely to STAY straight. The rest can get averaged into a panel or cut into shorter parts. Believe it or not, the finished doors will be just as flat as if you had hand jointed every dang part. I know because I've done it both ways.

For a home shop, or custom furniture maker, etc., it sure is nice to flatten and square squirrely boards. After all, the most visually interesting grain often comes from the least stable lumber. That's why I still have a jointer, even though we don't use it as much as we used to. It is still the cornerstone machine for getting flat parts out of crooked wood. So if you are limited on your lumber sources, a jointer is pretty important!

[Rick Fisher]

I love milling rough lumber into blanks..

Love face jointing hardwood.. its like a surprise to see what you have..

Probably sounds silly .. but turning a rough 2x8 slab into straight smooth S4S for furniture is one of my favorite parts of woodworking.

[Glen Butler]

edge jointing on a table saw takes the right blade, power, and feed speed. If you feed too fast for the power of your saw your blade will slow. The change in momentum of the blade can cause vibrations and will produce a poor joint.