Inset doors with mortised hinges - no gap?

[Roger Jensen]

I am working on some kitchen cabinets with inset doors. I'm considering mortised vs. non-motised hinges. I think I can make a hinge jig to simplify the mortising with my Bosch Colt router, but I am concerned about how they look.

I am using some nice ball hinges from Lee Valley. However, when they are closed the two sides are completely together. When I mortise the hinges in the door stile and face frame the door and stile are touching. The other three sides of the door have a 1/16 inch gap.

I prefer the look of the non-mortised hinges because I can make an even 1/16 inch gap all around the doors, including between the hinge and face frame.

Am I missing something here? Do I leave the hinges proud of the wood when I do the mortises (seems strange) or do I try a different hinge?

I like the quality of the Lee Valley hinge. The Amerock non-mortise hinges don't seem as nice. I am waiting for delivery of some Cliffside non-mortise hinges (yikes, they are expensive!), but I'm open to any hinge with a satin nickle finish.

As always, thanks for your suggestions.

Roger

[Rob Woodman]

Let the part of the hinge furthest away from the knuckle in flush and the knuckle edge a little less to provide the gap you require.
Of course this means chopping the hinges in by hand (but I often do so as it can be quicker than setting up a router etc) or a shopmade jig produced.
Alternatively, mortise in as usual on the frame side and angle the door side in a more pronounced way.
In the UK we have to do this fairly often due to people supplying poor quality hinges for the job in hand, pay top dollar for a custom door then get the cheapest fittings possible to secure it, false economy for their investment.
Hope this helps, Rob.

[Roger Jensen]

I surprised I haven't seen this issue more often. Is it because Lee Valley has hinges that aren't as common (with both leaves coming completely together)? All of the books I have, and I have more than I care to admit, just say mortise the entire hinge in the door frame.

I have to admit I'm not excited about cutting 20 hinge mortises by hand. Even if I cut the frame side with a router and jig I still have 20 chances to screw up the door!

Thanks.

Roger

[Rob Woodman]

Roger, most of the hinges in the UK are made with a gap by the knuckle but some imported cheap ones do not. I am not conversant with the Lee Valley ones you mention but I suspect they are of a high quality.
As for screwing up, take it slowly at first, mark them out and even take time to knife the mortise edge then chop to them. Im sure you will do a fine job. Rob.

[Kevin Groenke]

Hey Roger,

Most old hinges on/for inset doors that I've seen are simply straight leaves. I would think that period doors with inset hinges were simply mortised and didn't/don't have a consistent gap all-around the door, though I have seem all sorts of stuff used for shims when dismantling old cabinets (cigarette boxes, tin cans, tar-paper, playing cards). I suppose that stuff is behind the hinges to get a consistent reveal. I would think fitting each hinge individually to get a 1/16" gap would be a very tedious process. It's one thing to do that on 2 doors for a free-standing piece, but to do it for 40+ hinges throughout a kitchen would certainly test MY patience. If your after a consistent 1/16" reveal, the no-mortise hinge might be the way to go.

I struggled with the same decision when I designed and built period appropriate cabinetry for our 1920's bungalow.

I wanted to use ball-end, mortise hinges as the original casework would have had . . . but in the end, the economy and simplicity of the no mortises won out. I used Amerocks:

A03175TB G9 - inset, ball tip, sterling nickel.

http://wwhardware.com/catalog.cfm/Gr...%20Full%20Wrap




~6 years later - no regrets, the hinges were WAY easy to install and have proven durable. Sure, I notice that though the kitchen LOOKS period, it really isn't, but I really don't think anybody else does: and I hang out with architects. The lack of soft-close on these hinges is not a problem - with inset doors, the air in the cabinet prevents the doors from slamming, I can swing the door quite hard: the door slows before closing then the magnets at the corners attract and snap the doors closed - it's kinda fun.

The completed kitchen can be seen here:
http://sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php...12&postcount=1

g'luck
-kg

[Jeff Wright]

I've had great success using a ball tip mortise hinge available from Rockler. It is an extruded hinge which I am told is the preferred design to maximize precision in hinge plate alignment. When the hinge is in the closed position, there is a small cap remaining between the plates. If you mortise BOTH hinge plates (one in the door stile and the other in the stile of the face frame), you are left with a nice reveal on the hinge side of the door. I like to make both my door and face frame pieces 7/8 inches thick. The Rockler hinges come in either regular or narrow sizes to better accommodate your stile thicknesses. I like the satin nickel look. To see an example, look up part number 57171 at the Rockler site. Each set costs $24.99 in size 2 1/2 x 1 3/8. I am beginning our kitchen which will have many doors, all inset with beaded openings. I have built a number of test pieces (shop cabinets, a cabinet for my wife's china painting supplies, bathroom medicine cabinet as shown in photo here, wall cabinets in a bedroom renovation) to practice installing mortised butt hinges and have gotten quite good at it after doing so many. I cut the mortises by tracing the hinge plate with a marking knife, removing the bulk of material with my small router freehand, and a chisel to finish the cleanup. The mortises are cut with a depth that leaves the hinge plate surface even with the stile. I build the doors to just fit the opening, then trim with a hand plane. It does take time to do, but for me the results are worth it.

[Horton Brasses]

You have to have a gap. I don't know which Lee Valley hinge you have but I am guessing they are sweged. Sweging is when you squeeze the two leaves together after production to eliminate the gap. I don't make any hinges this way but I assume it means you have somehow build a gap in. Most cabinets have a 3/32" gap or simlar. Non mortise hinges will save a ton of time ultimately but there is a learning curve. You will need a back bevel on your hinge side so you don't become hinge bound. Non mortise hinges will reveal any inconsistency in your door sizing and fitting but if that is straight then they are easiest. Mortise butt hinges, while tricky to fit and adjust, will allow you to hide inconsistencies in the door and frame fitting. Most people consider mortised hinges to be the more attractive way to do doors. No matter what hinge you use you should be seeking an even gap on all four sides. Feel free to e-mail me to talk about hinges. I do hinges all day every day. I can recommend my own of course, but I am happy to help you choose hinges from anyone. Lee Valley always has good stuff.

[Steve Jenkins]

Not to hijack this thread but if you haven't tried Horton Brasses hardware you are missing some great stuff. I haven't used a lot of their hinges as I typically use european style but the ones I have gotten from them were really nice.
Just a satisfied customer who was pleasantly surprised to see their post.

[Horton Brasses]

Thank you Steve. Much appreciated. I am just here to help out on topics where I might be able to be of assistance.