a relabeling job or what?

[Mark Singer]

This looks familiar????

[Matt Meiser]

I don't think its just a relabel. It looks like a copy though. Interestingly, a lot of the packages are actually more than the similar Tormek package.

[Mark Rios]

Yeah, that looks a little familiar to me. I've never owned a power sharpening system but I seem to recall the name to be...ummmmmm......Torjek?

[tod evans]

well mark i suppose if it`s allright to "clone" stationary equipment than this is acceptable as well?
how does the arguement go........"there`s no new technology, we add a few bells and whistles more or less" or some such.....
wait `till the next ship docks there will be assorted colors available to match any decor.......02 tod

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Mark, there have been discussions about this, which included comments on the US distributor, on other forums. Patents have expired. Fair game now for all but some of the accessories, which are still covered in newer patents.

It was only a matter of time, obviously. This is actually good for the consumer. It *may* end up that Tormek updates and or changes significantly its machine so new patents would apply. This is a common scenario.

Too, now that there is competition, there may well be real innovation injected into an otherwise venerable machine by either Tormek or its competitors. The Jet is not even incremental changes, really.

Like Tod said, more colors will appear. Most likely a green one will join the pack for less. And of course, a red one for even less...<g>.

Take care, Mike

[Allen Bookout]

I have only seen one report from a guy that actually had his hands on one. He was not actually able to take it for a test run as he said that it was not set up for that yet. The only impression that he really had was that the finish was a little substandard, especially the chrome support bar and I can see kind of see what he saying by looking at the verticle bar in the picture. I think he called it junk chrome.

It may be a good product but it is going to be interesting to see what the real lowdown is as time goes on.

The other thing that is going to be interesting is how good their instrctions are for using it. This is a critical aspect for the end user.

The discussion group was saying that the price, as of now anyway, was very close to the Tormek.

Allen

[Jim O'Dell]

The Woodcraft flyer I got yesterday had the Jet prominently displayed for 399.99 on the cover. Further into the flyer was the Tormek for...399.99 but it includes a free knife jig and stone grader. To be fair, the Jet does say it comes with a free 2 drawer base, support arm extension and cover. I'm not in the market for either one at this point, just thought that it was odd both were in there at the same price. Jim.

[Frank Hagan]

Originally Posted by Jim O'Dell

The Woodcraft flyer I got yesterday had the Jet prominently displayed for 399.99 on the cover. Further into the flyer was the Tormek for...399.99 but it includes a free knife jig and stone grader. To be fair, the Jet does say it comes with a free 2 drawer base, support arm extension and cover. I'm not in the market for either one at this point, just thought that it was odd both were in there at the same price. Jim.

I think the price will come down on the Jet. I'm surprised they are coming out at the same price, to be honest. I'll make a prediction that they will come out 10% lower than the Tormek, and then drop to somewhere between 15 - 20% lower in order to sell them. At the same price, I don't see any reason to try the Chinese knock-off. Now, at $329 ... they will get quite a few buyers.

I think the Tormek is overpriced, so I hope they decide to compete in the market.

[Mike Wenzloff]

I think the Tormek is overpriced, so I hope they decide to compete in the market.

Perhaps. But I can think American made cars are over priced. I can hope they will build as good as a car as some of the imports, for the same or lower price. I think my hope would be misplaced.

I really think the idea of catorgorizing tools as over priced is silly. What does "over priced" mean? I suspect it means different things to different people.

I think for any company to have sustainable profit and not build throw-away tools, well, they are going to cost more. Paying someone more than a dollar a day to work for them, print quality instructional manuals, ad infintum, does and will continue to have a cost.

So if a competitor comes out with a knock-off and chooses to save money by cutting corners and produce their tools in a country with sub-standard wages--and hence make an even greater profit when selling for at or slightly below the originator--well, all too often the original maker follows suit in order to compete. This eventually hurst us as users of tools.

The real question isn't that the Tormek costs too much, it should be why does Jet want to make so much?

Well, this thread may now go away...

Take care, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Originally Posted by Mike Wenzloff

So if a competitor comes out with a knock-off and chooses to save money by cutting corners and produce their tools in a country with sub-standard wages--and hence make an even greater profit when selling for at or slightly below the originator--well, all too often the original maker follows suit in order to compete. This eventually hurst us as users of tools.

I don't see how this would hurt us as users of tools - I think it would help us as users of tools. Competition drives prices lower and quality higher. If a manufacturer builds in China to get lower wage costs (for example), can produce a product with an acceptable quality level, and sells the product for much less than the original manufacturer, that benefits all of the people who buy the product. It's the WallMart effect.

Mike

[Per Swenson]

Mr Henderson,

I had to walk around the room a few times after I read this,

"Competition drives prices lower and quality higher."

and the kicker, "that benefits all of the people who buy the product. It's the WallMart effect."

In my opinion, sadly no. Competition drives the prices lower but not the

quality higher when it is unfair competition. As is in the case of china's

manufacturing. You can not compete in labor costs so the product and

services suffer. Or you do compete by manfacturing in china and

lowering your quality standards. Look at the other thread about the motor

comparisons between the Jet and tormek.

Wallmart is the downfall of western civilization.

Or should I say the homogenization of said civilization and destroyer

of small business. There is no upside to wallmart.

Per

[Mike Wenzloff]

I agree with Per. There is no real upside in today's economy for farming our jobs oversees.

The effect is a cheapening of products. We are continuing a throw-away society and its getting worse.

Many here like old iron. In part because of philosophical reasons. But in part, maybe a great part, due to the higher quality of the past. This quality is not something which Walmart will ever produce. Nor Jet. Nor Powermatic.

The lessons of our recent past is that once tools are made in China, they simply do not get better. Nor stay the same as previously to outsourcing overseas. They get cheapened. Planned obsolesence is an fairly recent idea in the scheme of history.

Competion based upon true innovation helps industry and hence the consumer. Compeition because one can get labor for dollars a day does not and has not.

At one time Japanese vehicles were a joke. Labor was cheap, labor was relatively unskilled. That has changed in the past 50 years. But the society itself was always historically quality minded. An oppressed work force? Quality is not high on the priotity list.

Well, if this post doesn't get a warning, I don't know what will. Hate to be a thread killer.

Take care, Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Originally Posted by Per Swenson

Mr Henderson,
I had to walk around the room a few times after I read this,
"Competition drives prices lower and quality higher."
and the kicker, "that benefits all of the people who buy the product. It's the WallMart effect."

In my opinion, sadly no. Competition drives the prices lower but not the
quality higher when it is unfair competition. As is in the case of china's
manufacturing. You can not compete in labor costs so the product and
services suffer. Or you do compete by manfacturing in china and
lowering your quality standards. Look at the other thread about the motor
comparisons between the Jet and tormek.

Wallmart is the downfall of western civilization.

Or should I say the homogenization of said civilization and destroyer
of small business. There is no upside to wallmart. Per

There's a good side to WallMart and a bad side. I only highlighted the good side. To discuss the bad side would be to make this thread a political discussion instead of a woodworking discussion. I certainly see the bad side of WallMart and can expound at length on the problems.

Just because something is made in China does not make it a lower quality product. The Jet may be - I don't know. However, the market will decide. If people find it to be lower quality (for the money) they won't buy it. Information about price/quality travels very quickly now.

Forty or so years ago, the same thing was said about products from Japan. Back then, many Japanese products were cheap and shoddy. But now, many Japanese products are better than those made in the US.

I've traveled to China and have a number of Chinese friends. In general, I find the Chinese to be very bright people, hard working and entrepreneurial. The fact that they work for less money (in China) than an American will work for does not mean that they produce shoddy products.

I certainly understand your frustration. But I hold to my statement. Competition does drive prices lower and quality higher. Earlier in our country's history, the competition was from domestic companies. Today it's from global companies. But the basic truth of free enterprise still holds. The consumer benefits from competition.

Mike

[Per Swenson]

Mr Henderson,

Because this is a woodworking forum and I need to stay on topic.

I am going to refrain from this debate.

Per

[Jim Becker]

Careful, folks...

Your moderators are watching....