Who cuts new saw teeth?

[Jim Paulson]

Heh Daren,

That was really cool. Got to run to church now. Maybe some day I can find one of those.

Thanks,
Jim Paulson

[Alan DuBoff]

Alan posted a link to a site that has patterns you can print for spacing, but for some reason it is now telling me I am not authorized to access the page. May be late night site administration.

I got a reply from Leif, he's gonna look at it today. He thinks the database got munged up somehow.

[Jim Koepke]

It looks like it is back up at the original link you posted:

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/node/76

This morning it had a site maintenance page, so I guess it got fixed.

Now I should take the time to download the files while the gettin' is good.

jim

[Jim Paulson]

Heh Jim,

Thanks. I did the downloads and I found a saw to test this out on. A 12 inch Tyzack saw with a nice brass back should be a good candidate for me to convert to a 10 tpi rip. If I can get this right maybe I'll make a new handle and post it afterwards. I got this saw at a second hand store and I prefer the old style handles over the original. Any thoughts on where I could find a pattern for a Kenyon style handle?

Jim

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Jim,

Personally, I love 9 and 10 ppi rip-filed tenon saws. However, you might find that 10 ppi is a bit coarse for a 12" length blade. In general, a coarser saw favors a longer one.

But the beauty of doing your own toothing is that if that generalization holds true for you, then you have the ability to redo it. It's always faster the next go round.

Take care, Mike

[Jim Paulson]

Mike,

I like what you said about the flexibility of the tooth size vs length. Alan had similar thoughts about the coarseness of the 10 points. I am hoping it is like making your own wooden hand plane (Krenov style), once you do it you have more freedom with your woodworking. I am embarassed to say that I've used my cross cut back saw one too many times for ripping with frustrating results. Hopefully, this will give me the means to add a few rip saws to my tool box. I also love to refurbish old tools.

So far so good on the filing and those 10 point teeth (10 tpi/11 ppi) seem small enough for me now. Thanks again on your comments.

Jim

[Leif Hanson]

I got a reply from Leif, he's gonna look at it today. He thinks the database got munged up somehow.

Yes, and what fun! Worse yet, I think it was all my fault... Ended up going through a full site upgrade to repair it. Anyway I've got the thing up now, it should be up to stay (famous last words). There'll likely be some issues and difficulty finding things while I rebuild the menu system. Still researching the best method to use...

If you have the patience, it's nothing to file new teeth - and a great skill to have. But if you know somebody with a Foley - well, that is just a bunch easier. Problem is not everybody has one or want to do it for you for next to nothing...

Mark Harrell at technoprimitives.com gets high marks... and has set prices. You might give him a try if you don't feel up to the task. I think it's like $45 for retoothing.

Leif

[Alan DuBoff]

Problem is not everybody has one or want to do it for you for next to nothing...

The later certainly explains me. What I found out is that the Foley equipment is so crude that you can't easily set it up and get the proper rake the first time, or that it doesn't stamp them properly with small teeth so you need to make another pass.

In the past I offered to do this for folks, but what I have found out is that it is not worth my time to offer the help to others, as I can easily spend more time than I would want doing so. It is not that I don't want to help others, just that it's hard to calculate how long it will take to stamp teeth by the time you get a plate that your happy with. At least that is how it is for me.

The Foley equipment is not without fault...whoever designed this stuff had their head on sideways...

[Jim Paulson]

Hi,

Thanks Lief for getting your site back up and you and Alan for you comments. I gather as well that besides cost and availability, the trick with the Foley equipment is also being able to obtain the necessary accessories like the various parts (carrier) that hold the saws.

Being a woodcarver I found it helpful to use my opti-visor, but the 2x (i think) lense was not quite enough for me to see the teeth clearly. Any thoughts on using magnification? I found it hard enough to see the teeth at 10 tpi. I definitely would need something more powerful for finer teeth.

Jim

[Alan DuBoff]

Thanks Lief for getting your site back up and you and Alan for you comments. I gather as well that besides cost and availability, the trick with the Foley equipment is also being able to obtain the necessary accessories like the various parts (carrier) that hold the saws.

Jim,

The Foley equipment requires that you have a carrier, this is the piece that holds the saw blade, you clamp the blade to the carrier to secure it. The carrier has some cross-bars, which sit about 3/4" above the carrier bar itself, this allows for the handle to be left on the saw when you sharpen, providing 3/4" for clearance of the handle on that side of the blade, if that makes sense. It is about half the thickness of the handle, so 3/4" works on most all saws I have seen.

Then you need to attach a ratchet bar to the carrier, this gets attached to the opposite side of the carrier. It is these ratchets that get lost over time, and separated from their equipment. Also, multiple machines work with the carrier/ratchets, so even to use one machine you need them, but more than often people have one set of carriers for multiple machines. The retoother is yet one machine, there's also a auto filer, and an auto setter. In theory you can shape (retoother), set (power setter), and sharpen (filer) with the various machines. For my taste, the only machine that has been worth any value is the retoother to stamp the teeth, I set and file by hand.

The ratchets will handle for about 4 ppi up to 16 ppi. In total there are about 8 or 9 ratchets, as they do multiple sizes. One would think that going from 1 tooth to 2 teeth on the ratchet would half the number of ppi, but it doesn't work like that, and I was confused over this for the longest time...but a fellow galoot explained to me why. When you measure ppi, you measure both teeth on the end, so there are more teeth in ppi than tpi. The Foley ratchets work on ppi. When you half the number, you end up with a half tooth for the end tooth, and that is why the difference. The 16 ppi ratchet will also do 8 1/2 ppi, it's the end tooth that accounts for the extra half, if that makes sense. This was bugging me why the mathmatics didn't work out even and half the number, but that is the reason, the extra tooth. As an example, the 15 ppi ratchet will also stamp 8 ((15 / 2) + 1/2), the 14 ppi will stamp 7 1/2 ((14 / 2) + 1/2), etc...some ratchets will stamp 3 sizes, such as 13-7-4, but you can only get a 3rd ratchet on some. I believe that has to do with the 2nd value in regards to the 1/2 tooth, so I suspect it needs to be on the even number if that makes sense.

Here's some pics from another thread.

Carrier gages allow you to set the blade on the carrier, ignore the teeth on the wrong side, I just did this for a picture, you would cut the teeth on top.


The ratchet attaches to the opposite side of the blade:


The carrier going through the retoother, the ratchet advances the carrier as the die stamps the teeth. The ratchet determines the ppi of teeth which are stamped:

Being a woodcarver I found it helpful to use my opti-visor, but the 2x (i think) lense was not quite enough for me to see the teeth clearly. Any thoughts on using magnification? I found it hard enough to see the teeth at 10 tpi. I definitely would need something more powerful for finer teeth.

You need to be the proper distance to the teeth. I use 2.5x lenses in the OptiVisor, and it works well for me, but they make a 3x also. The lenses are replaceable so you might consider a stronger set of lenses that will make it more comfortable for you. I can do 10 without magnification, but start using it around 13-14 ppi. Very hard for me to sharpen without magnification on any of the smaller teeth.

[Jim Paulson]

Alan,

I plan to stick with it for now. I trust that filing/retoothing/sharpening will come easier with time. I'll work on magnification, better lighting and also keeping track of the teeth I've already filed. Seriously, overall my saw looks good for an initial attempt. I have to chuckle though when I see a little wave in the heights of the teeth and some variations in the size of the teeth. I guess it adds character. The good news is that the saw at least can cut. It will be good enough until the next time when I get around to leveling the teeth again and tweaking it some more. At least I'll know which teeth to go easy on, the low ones .

Great pictures of the Foley retoother. Unless the patents still apply, wouldn't you think someone would remanufacture those ratchets? Maybe there isn't enough of a market.

Take care,
Jim

[Alan DuBoff]

I trust that filing/retoothing/sharpening will come easier with time.

Absolutely! I think you will find that if your patient you can shape the teeth good. Just remember to be patient, don't take too much off in a pass, so you can compensate if they get out of proportion.

better lighting

This is the single most overlooked area, IMO. By having proper lighting, it will help tremendously. If you have natural lighting during the day, all the better, IMO.

I see a little wave in the heights of the teeth and some variations in the size of the teeth. I guess it adds character.

It does add character, but more importantly you will find that the saw will still be sharp, so there is no reason to fear that one would ruin the saw, yet so many do...just joint and resharpen.

Great pictures of the Foley retoother. Unless the patents still apply, wouldn't you think someone would remanufacture those ratchets? Maybe there isn't enough of a market.

Foley still owns the rights and sells them. They charge $70/each for them, and don't have all of them anymore, but what they have can be had by them. You could make your own, would be a lot of work but someone that understood gears really well, would probably know which cutter is needed, I'm not sure myself. You will still need some type of linier indexer also to space them correctly.

Foley doesn't sell the 16 ppi anymore, so that is the most sought after, IMO.

The other thing is that you can still find the ratchets on ebay, and while they go for decent change, they are way cheaper than buying from Foley at $70/each. The ratchets are the deal breaker for most of the equipment. Without them you can't use them.

Take care,
Jim[/quote]

[Daren K Nelson]

The ratchets are the deal breaker for most of the equipment. Without them you can't use them.

I know I get contacted at least once a month by people wanting to buy just the carriers and ratchets. Their note always starts "I bought this (retoother/filer) at an auction for $XX (cheap) but it did not come with the carriers"...Yep you just bought a $XX boat anchor.