Member
"Small correction - it's actually China, not India - at least - that's what the post reads now."
Even worse. With the exception of your company (mainly because Canada has a reasonably high standard of living, child labor laws and environmental regualtions), I won't have anything in my shop that isn't made in the US, if I can help it. Sadly, that seems to be increasingly impossible with sandpaper, portable power tools, and even jigs and fixtures.
Member
I understand the buy US thing...but aren't most LN planes "clones" of old Stanleys...they even say so on their website (i.e. ...ours is based on the old Stanley #xx...) so I'm not sure how relevant that comment is. Personally I'm leaning towards more Veritas, LNs if I can get them used, but I love the Low Angle Smoother I got from Lee Valley, its a Bevel Up plane and I find it very easy to tune and use.Originally Posted by Douglas Brummett
That which does not kill you will likely raise your insurance premiums.
Contributor
I haven't read the woodnet discussion so I don't know exactly what was said - so if anyone would like to amplify on the comments of Rob Lee and Derek Cohen I'd appreciate it.
I don't know what direction they're talking about, but having a wider variety of tools, at a variety of price points, does not seem like a bad market direction for the people who buy and use the tools.
Personally, I'm not very worried about a tool losing value over time. I don't buy tools as investments and I expect them to wear out and lose value. Essentially all my tools do that. I have a pretty complete selection of hand planes, but if I was just starting out in woodworking, I'd welcome the ability to purchase a new plane that worked well at a decent price. I still remember when I was just getting started in woodworking - I was appalled at the cost of tools and the number of tools I needed. It was very expensive to get started.
I welcome Woodcraft to the marketplace. If the combination of "quality" and price meets the needs of a significant segment of the woodworking market, they'll be successful. If not, the planes will fade from the market. That's what our economic system is all about.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
Hi Mike,
I think some tools do wear out over time - turning tools, chisels, plane blades, and certainly power tools, but others - planes are the main example -do not wear out in one woodworker's lifetime [unless they are wooden bodied.] I think that when one plunks down quite a bit for a high quality plane, it's reassuring to know that it will hold most of its value. I have to say also, that the good quality old Stanleys, the LV, and LN tools I've bought over the years have all held or gone up in value. This helps me justify my tool purchases.
I don't want to speak for Rob and Derek, they are far more articulate than I. But we each express an opinion with our purchases. I, for one, will support LV and LN, and not some manufacturer in the far east. I like Woodcraft, but I don't like what they're doing on this issue.
Last edited by Ken Werner; 01-29-2009 at 8:43 AM.
Contributor
Hi Mike -
The basic thrust of what I was saying is that some of the products are blatant copies of original designs. In essence - it's theft ...pure and simple.
There are some that will do anything for a buck, and others who will support/enable that activity to save one....
The discussion has misguidedly centered around the bedrock planes - which aren't really the nub of the issue - and has caused much of the discussion to go off track.
Cheers -
Rob
(gone skiiing for the first time in 25 years....)
Guest
Oh dear God be careful.
Member
Honestly cloning of items that are no longer under patent protection isn't my gripe. It is the cheapening of products, outsourcing of labor, and passing items off as "good quality". If there were no tool snobs these products would overrun the market and push the quality mfgs out of business. Then as time went on inflation and "manufacturing costs" would rise to increase profit on these. At some point in the future even these cheap immitation tools become expensive and we are left with a void where quality tools no longer exist. That is kind of the point where LN and LV stepped into the game back in the 80's (I know the Lee name has been around a bit longer).
The furniture market is a great example of this sort of practice. Now cheap furniture is expensive, but quality still isn't very good (Ashley, pottery barn, etc). In comes Ikea to save the day for cheap consumers. Of course the custom furniture realm has and will always be available to those who can afford $20K+ dining sets
Contributor
Hi Mike (and all)
The issue is not about lower cost tools, or even that they are made in China. It is about design theft. Below is part of my first response on the WoodNet thread. Up until that point no one had mentioned the issue of ethics, only price ...
".. So many here are interested in a new, cheap tool, one that resembles a more expensive make. They are taken by the price, and ignore the moral and ethical issues involved.
The question is should not be whether these Wood River planes are a decent substitute, but whether they should be sold at all.
No one can claim ownership of designs in the public domain, that are no longer protected by patents, such as the classic Stanley tools (and a million power tools). However, the Wood River planes look like they come out of the same Chinese factory as the Grant planes, and where the designs produced and sold copy those created by companies such as LN and LV, then you must realise by purchasing the copies, you are both supporting design theft and undermining the efforts of companies that are willing to bear the costs of producing quality tools (such as LN and LV).
Are we to condone local companies selling what are clear design rip offs, such as the Bogg spokeshave, the LV Scraper, and the Grant version of the LV #95. Woodcraft, JWW and Tilgeatr (UK)must be fully aware that these tools are rip offs. So why do they buy in the stock to sell? Only if there are Buyers of this stock. "
Here are some images for consideration:
Japan WoodWorking spokeshave:
Does it remind you of this?
Does this look familiar?
Or these?
Keep in mind that I am not coming down on re-builds of Bedrock Stanley planes. These are in the public domain. On the other hand, there is no place for those that copy the presentation and modifications to these planes, as in the deliberate attempt to align them with LN planes.
Buying such planes/tools supports the practice of theft.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Member
Derek -- well said. I couldn't agree more. A LN is based on the Bedrock but has a clear "look" of it's own -- no one would mistake one for the other. This is not an attempt to make another quality plane but rather a cheap counterfeit. These are rip offs just as sleazy as the fake "Rolex" watches. If I shopped at a store that carried these planes I would inform the manager that they have lost a customer.
Contributor
I wasn't even aware of the Grant planes, Derek. Regarding copying LN planes, or anybody's planes, if the design is not covered by patent, trademark or some other legal protection, anyone can copy it. Our economic system is set up to encourage this copying because it leads to lower prices which benefits the country as a whole. It also encourages the original manufacturer to increase their efficiency and limits their ability to extract "excessive" profits.
I understand your feeling of the unfairness of the system, but that is the system and it's worked well for all of us. All we can ask of the companies who sell us things is that they follow the laws we've established. Of course, if a potential customer feels that the company is within the law, but still unethical, they can refuse to purchase the product, which is why companies stress how "environmentally friendly" they are.
If the planes are "good", meaning that they work well and sell for an acceptable price, they will succeed in the market. If not, they won't.
In almost every market there are products at different price points. There are Fiats and Mercedes Benz cars, and the buyer gets to choose which one they want. Hand planes are no different.
Mike
Last edited by Mike Henderson; 01-29-2009 at 11:59 AM.
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
Okay, can of worms opening up
Does this imitation tool look just a bit like it is trying to borrow some market share from the innovative little driver pictured below???
Should we boycott LV for selling the imitation tool? Should we write Rob a letter and let him know he is the demise of the Canadian economy? The whole debate is on shaky ground because we have invited these imitation products into our homes for decades, heck centuries if you are talking about hand plane clones
Go ahead and take the high ground here, but do you go the cheap route elsewhere? I know I do. I bought my ridgid SCMS solely on price and reputation, throw out that it just stole a lot of design concept from another mfg.
Yep, these planes bug me. I was not happy to get a new woodcraft catalog and see them on the front. Gave me the distinc impression that the next step for woodcraft is to kick LN quality tools out of their stores. But what am I gonna do about it? Nuthin
Member
Mike I couldn't disagree more. The reason Chinese rip offs are cheap is because of excessively low wages, child labor, lack of environmental regulations, a totalitarian government, a misguided "free trade" policy and so forth. If we want to race to the bottom then let's support that and when we're all unemployed we'll wonder how it happened. All and especially the OP and Mike -- please forgive me for my rant!
Contributor
All companies can do is follow the law. You could try to change the law, of course, but our economic system and the laws that guide it have worked very well. Whatever you replaced it with would have its own problems.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Member
Mike,
Companies and people can do more than follow the law. See the bottom of your post!
Contributor
They can but they could put themselves at a competitive disadvantage. Companies operate in the market according to rules (laws) established by us. It's similar to a sports game. Each company has to fight hard for sales, while following the rules (laws). Occasionally, a company (like a sports competitor) may refuse to "use" the rules to their advantage, and may gain some market position from it. But in the majority of the market (as in sports), the company who exploits the rules to their advantage is the one who wins.
We cannot set rules (laws) and complain when the companies follow those rules. As individuals, we can expect more and refuse to buy from companies unless they support our pet cause, but we can't complain that they aren't following the rules.
If you expect more, you need to do things to change the rules so that all companies have to follow them and everyone competes on a level playing field.
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
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