Saw Stop cabinet saw tender subject I know

[Denny Rice]

Here's a slightly different perspective from someone who has never even seen a sawstop saw, and frankly would not buy one even if he could. Schools and commercial shops aside, I just don't get why you part with the extra cash so easily.

I presume each and every one of you sawstop owners have smoke alarms in every room of your house ? If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or even killed by a house fire.

I also presume you and your families travel in cars with stability control and side curtain airbags. If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or killed in an auto accident.

The list goes on, but I am sure you get my point. Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment

[Time to don the fire suit I think]

Could not agree more Ken.

Denny

[Per Swenson]

Ken,

Sorry, but to suggest that folks would plunge their fingers into spinning saw blades intentionally isn't a good argument. Sort of akin to driving the wrong way in traffic to test your airbags, seat belt and anti lock brakes.
Have you ever been to a convention of finish carpenters or cabinet makers?
Missing digits and horror story's are far more prevalent then you might think
and the majority of kick back injuries resulting in blunt trauma, but no blood, go unreported. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and a dependency on skill and experience alone to always keep you safe.
Personally I don't like the odds.

Per

[Cody Colston]

It's absolutely amazing how polarizing the subject of Sawstop and Festool have become. Sorta funny, too, to read the replies from the groupies and apologists.

From everything I have read and seen, the Sawstop is THE premiere American-style table saw. It tops all the magazine rankings because of features like the wider (30") table, riving knife, dust collection, heavy-duty trunnions and, of course, the blade-stop feature.

It almost makes me want to buy one. But, being a principled sort of guy and detesting being forced into anything, I can't get past the attempt Steve Gass made to legislate his invention as mandatory...all in the interest of safety, mind you.

So, I'll have to just pay attention where I put my fingers when using my el-cheapo Grizzly cabinet saw. I hope I don't get distracted wondering what I will spend the extra $3000 dollars on that is the difference in price between the Griz and the Sawstop.

[Joe Jensen]

Here's a slightly different perspective from someone who has never even seen a sawstop saw, and frankly would not buy one even if he could. Schools and commercial shops aside, I just don't get why you part with the extra cash so easily.

I presume each and every one of you sawstop owners have smoke alarms in every room of your house ? If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or even killed by a house fire.

I also presume you and your families travel in cars with stability control and side curtain airbags. If not, why not ? You are far more likely to be injured or killed in an auto accident.

The list goes on, but I am sure you get my point. Of course if you feel that at some time in the future you are going to be stupid enough to plunge your hand into your saw then maybe it's a good investment

[Time to don the fire suit I think]

Interesting perspective. I do have smoke alarms in each bedroom. I also have 3 cars, and all have antilock brakes, stability control (vehicle dynamics) and side impact air bags. These features were important enough to me that I bought a brand new 2007 VW Jetta just to get them for my daughters. BTW, some idiot ran a red light last week and T-boned my wife and I in our very safe expensive car. We walked away with no injuries. Could we have in another car, maybe. Am I glad a spent a butt load on the car I did, absolutely.

I am not a safety nut. But, when I was 14 I did get my finger in a tablesaw. over 30 years later I can still remember how teeth felt hitting the bone.

Keep in mind that it's all relative. For some the Sawstop is a huge percentage of income. For others, it's a small percentage of their income. If the SawStop were a large part of my income I'd have pushed back on my wife. She saw the demo and insisted that I buy it.

[Joe Jensen]

One more thought. These threads almost always start with someone asking a simple question of those who own a SawStop. Then detractors of either Gass or the price of the saw jump in to say how stupid people are for buying one or how the technology is sure to fail, or the company is sure to fail, or how its simpler to just not put your hand in the saw.

These threads wouldn't degrade if the detractors would stick to answering the original posters question and not feel the irresistable desire to jump on their soap box.

[Mark Grotenhuis]

Where did this statistic come from?

I'm having a really hard time believing SS is outselling all other models, especially at their price point.

Mike

My Local woodcraft owner says sawstop outsells all other brand tablesaws 3:1 in their store. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

As a side note I used to be 100% sure that as long as you practice safe tablesaw techniques you will never have an accident. I thought the sawstop was designed for people who needed extra protection because they chose to be careless. Then one day I was using my miter gauge on a tablesaw when the miter gauge unexpectedly came loose and the angle changed while pushing it through the blade. It kicked like a horse and I lost the tip of my finger. It took me several days to even come to terms with the fact that I had an accident. I was just so convinced it was impossible as long as you were safe.

Now reading these sawstop debates I know exactly where the people who say the sawstop is frivolous are coming from ... because I was one of you. Take my advice, don't be stubborn. Accidents happen, and if there is a technology out there that prevents accidents; give it a chance. Not a day goes by that I don't wish I had bought my sawstop sooner. And if you read this and think "well he was just stupid ... that's why he lost his finger" I wish you the best ... hopefully it never happens to you. But what is really stupid? Knowing you could have prevented your accident? Or being too stubborn to admit that an accident could ever happen to you?

[Jonathan Spool]

Getting back to the original question:
Although I cannot attest to whether the SS will hold up for a shift under heavy work load, I can say that my 5HP SS rips through 2.5" maple like butter, while my old 3HP Walket Turner used to take some babying. WWII bladfes used in both cases.
Jonathan

[george wilson]

I wrote an earlier post about the Saw Stop I bought for work. I don't have one at home,and probably won't,because you cannot use different diameter blades on them. I made a 6" blade into a .020" kerf blade for cutting fret slots for guitars. I have a number of special blades that would not work on the sawstop. Actually,now I remember that for our Saw Stop,we used the blade that came with it.Then we put on a 10" Forrest blade. Saw wouldn't start. There was a small difference in the diameter od the 2 nominally 10" blades. Brake had to be adjusted. Also,as I mentioned,we had a perfectly good 6" dado blade. We had to buy an expensive 8" dado,AND a special brake unit.


Lastly,the throat plate is very special,and a pain to make,so we had to buy a special blank throat plate for use with the dado. Usually,I just make a quick throat plateup. Not so with the Saw Stop. Their throat plate has to be machined specially to slip under some screws. I have milling machines,but your average ,or purely woodworking shop might find this problematic. For cutting dados across a cupped board,I make up a humped throat plate. The hump causes the dado to be cut to the same depth across the cupped board.Eventually,the cup could be pulled out as you assemble the shelves,or whatever. They don't make a humped throat plate,si I guess you have to buy a blank plastic one,and try to glue a hump onto it?


I did cut my first 2 fingers through the fingernails just as I was getting out of college. I had never had much money,and had scrounged up an old 1930's TILTING TABLE table saw. I only had a low powered motor on it. I was ripping some narrow wood strips,when the table must have tilted a bit. The motor stalled down. The capacitor kicked in,and drew my fingers back across the blade. 2 years before I could comfortably dial a phone(old rotary). I bought my Dewalt 10" table saw my first year of having a decent job. I still have it.

I am only stating a few things that a person might want to consider before buying a saw that requires very specific accessories. I'd like to have the safety feature,but I continue to be careful (and lucky!) with my old Dewalt,and use my special blades and throatplates.

[Ken Milhinch]

Ken,

Sorry, but to suggest that folks would plunge their fingers into spinning saw blades intentionally isn't a good argument. Sort of akin to driving the wrong way in traffic to test your airbags, seat belt and anti lock brakes.
Have you ever been to a convention of finish carpenters or cabinet makers?
Missing digits and horror story's are far more prevalent then you might think
and the majority of kick back injuries resulting in blunt trauma, but no blood, go unreported. Of course you are entitled to your opinion and a dependency on skill and experience alone to always keep you safe.
Personally I don't like the odds.

Per

Per,
You are referring to carpenters & cabinet makers, and I specifically excluded schools and commercial shops from my comment. Familiarity breeds contempt, and that is why many carpenters & cabinet makers can't count to ten on their fingers. My comment was directed more to hobby users.

[Greg Pavlov]

Per,
You are referring to carpenters & cabinet makers, and I specifically excluded schools and commercial shops from my comment. Familiarity breeds contempt, and that is why many carpenters & cabinet makers can't count to ten on their fingers. My comment was directed more to hobby users.

I think that in addition to problems caused by not being careful there are also problems caused by "unexpected" and "unanticipated" events. Someone who has worked with wood and wood tools extensively, especially professionals, has probably run into just about every possible problem, hiccup, etc and (hopefully) learned a lesson from it without paying (too high) a penalty. A lot of hobbyist folks haven't. I wouldn't be surprised,for example, if a lot of people have never seen how much of a weapon a chunk of wood caught in a kickback can be. I definitely haven't, I've learned to appreciate *that* problem from reading this site: I've had kickbacks but nothing on the scale & power that people here have seen. ALSO, a lot of hobbyists have occupations that could be affected by a power tool injury. I know someone very well who does quite a bit of surgery, for example, and if/when he buys a table saw I very much hope that he decides to buy a SawStop.

[Chris Padilla]

Per,
You are referring to carpenters & cabinet makers, and I specifically excluded schools and commercial shops from my comment. Familiarity breeds contempt, and that is why many carpenters & cabinet makers can't count to ten on their fingers. My comment was directed more to hobby users.

I'm not sure if it breeds comtempt (maybe, if you hate your job) but complacency, I'm sure.

I would easily part with the cash for SS because I believe accidents are just that: accidental, not on purpose. One could be doing everything in one's power to be safe and, whammo, something happens. Mark Grotenhuis provides a perfect example. 'Nuff said for this Yank!

[Dennis Thornton]

Personally, I can't see how Sawstop couldn't be the number one selling saw. If I were responsible for the purchase of equipment for a school or business there's really only one option - the safest saw on the market. Insurance and legal costs alone make it the least expensive TS. And really, who wouldn't want the safest equipment for their employees?

[Ken Milhinch]

I'm not sure if it breeds comtempt (maybe, if you hate your job) but complacency, I'm sure.

Chris,
I forgot you guys don't speak the Queen's English. The expression "Familiarity breeds contempt" is an old one and in this context means disdain or disregard.

Anyway to more important matters, I think many of you have missed my point entirely. (Probably that language problem again )

I was not saying that the sawstop is not a well made saw and not that it isn't a great safety feature. My point to hobbyists is that when you spend some part of your income on safety, I wonder if you have covered the more important - and likely - risks like fire in your home or collision in your car, before you allocate money to a saw.
Of course everyone can spend their money as they see fit, but it just seems silly to me to have a saw that will protect your fingers, and maybe not have something in your house or car that could save your family's life.

I am all in favour of safety - who wouldn't be ? But chopping a finger off on a saw is way down my list of dangers to be worried about.

[Chris Padilla]

Ken,

I didn't miss your point. I have smoke/CO2 detectors in every room in my home. My family's car got top marks for safety for its year (2001) and I have to be honest, I'm not sure where my truck ranks (2006) but I paid for extra airbags in it.

So, yeah, I'm concerned about safety...why not extend that to my hobby that I spend most of my weekends and evenings enjoying?

You are making assumptions about risks. I don't even drive my car to get to work: I bike (albeit, possibly even more risky!!). So my point is that I'm sure we're all concerned about safety and place it as we see fit in our lives.

I don't own a SS but I would like one. I also will likely not buy a brand new one. I am being patient and trying to get a used one. They don't come up often and when they do, the prices are still spendy but one day, with patience, I think I will get one.

Finally, do you want to know my main reason for wanting a SS? It isn't because of the finger-saver (although that is #1 on my wife's list), it is because of the dust-collection improvememt!

(1) Dust Collection
(2) Larger Cast Iron Table Surface
(3) Finger Saver
(4) Riving Knife

If I found a PM2k for a good price, I would get that, too, because it also has a dust shroud for better DC. So I'm looking for both right now...I'm sure one will come up.

[Bill Keehn]

My Local woodcraft owner says sawstop outsells all other brand tablesaws 3:1 in their store. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

As a side note I used to be 100% sure that as long as you practice safe tablesaw techniques you will never have an accident. I thought the sawstop was designed for people who needed extra protection because they chose to be careless. Then one day I was using my miter gauge on a tablesaw when the miter gauge unexpectedly came loose and the angle changed while pushing it through the blade. It kicked like a horse and I lost the tip of my finger. It took me several days to even come to terms with the fact that I had an accident. I was just so convinced it was impossible as long as you were safe.

Now reading these sawstop debates I know exactly where the people who say the sawstop is frivolous are coming from ... because I was one of you. Take my advice, don't be stubborn. Accidents happen, and if there is a technology out there that prevents accidents; give it a chance. Not a day goes by that I don't wish I had bought my sawstop sooner. And if you read this and think "well he was just stupid ... that's why he lost his finger" I wish you the best ... hopefully it never happens to you. But what is really stupid? Knowing you could have prevented your accident? Or being too stubborn to admit that an accident could ever happen to you?

Point taken Mark, but the Sawstop might not have helped in that particular situation. Was it the blade that got you or the mitre gage?