Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 104

Thread: Why is custom cabinetry so expensive?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    1,850
    This thread has posts that bother me because they come from people whose other posts I respect, but are totally misguided. I sure hope all you cabinet makers that say you throw people out of your shop, laugh at them, tell them to go to Ikea or Home Depot, or similar are engaging in idle rhetoric. You may build a kitchen a week, but how often does the average Joe buy a kitchen?

    Putting aside what the average Joe knows about cabinets generally, you expect him or her to show up knowing why *your* cabinets are better than the custom cabinetmaker down the street? I've seen some custom cabinets where I'd rather have had Kraftmaid, and Kraftmaid actually represents pretty good value for certain types of work.

    If I walk into your shop and say "why are your cabinet twice what I could get at Home Depot," I'm asking a serious question. What value are you going to deliver? Have I seen your cabinets before? How am I supposed to know that you dovetail your drawers from solid maple stock, as opposed to the guy down the street who butt joints 'em with thermal resin glue like the borg? How do I know you book match your panels and use 18mm baltic birch sides and backs if you don't tell me or show me? How do I know I'm not getting melamine covered particle board interiors if you don't take the time to tell me? How do I know that you are qualified to--and going to--take care to design a functional kitchen, and are fundamentally better at it than the guy at the borg with the computer? How do I know how much design flexibility I have if you don't tell me, or whether you have a small shop that has very specific sizing to fit your jigs? How do I know you hand pick your stock, as opposed to using every last inch of stuff that gets delivered by some truck from somewhere? How do I know you are going to sweat all the finish details and make the wood proud, as opposed to shooting a couple coats of poly and calling it a day?

    When someone asks why you deserve more than the borg, its an invitation to show them your value proposition, not an insult. You know cabinets, and you know how you construct them. They don't. If you are gonna tell them to walk, that is potential business out the door. If you have so much business you don't give a damn, that's fine--perhaps your corpus of prior work has earned you the right to be a cantakerous bugger.

    So, tell them WHY its value. If you started whinging about your costs being higher than the borg and how you need to save for retirement and get your kids new shoes, that doesn't speak to value to all. If I told my clients my rates are high because my costs are higher than my competitors and I need to make a profit, they would tell me to get more efficient.

    In a society where people trade houses like underwear and 5-year ARMs are the norm, you aren't going to make a sale by telling someone you are installing an heirloom that can be passed down to future generations in their house. Chances are they aren't going to be in that house for that long. Tell them about the aesthetics of custom cabinets that create a "wow" factor that can't be duplicated by big box store cabinets, and how that differentiates their house from their neighbors (and other sellers in the neighborhood). Tell them about how you have created functional kitchens that have custom details that people remember and want to have--how you create kitchens that people want to live in and live with. Tell them how you will give them a beautiful space to use and a space that will increase the value of their home when it comes time to sell. Tell them the details you incorporate that they can be proud of and advertise to buyers when it comes time to sell. Show them your cabinets, point to the details that make it better, and send them to the borg to compare. If the value proposition is right, they will come back. Even if they don't come back this time--I say you may have a niche, but so does the borg--maybe they will come back the next time.

    Face it. Not everyone will recognize your genius just by meeting you. You might have to lead them a bit.

  2. Eric,
    Good post! Very well said.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Robbins View Post

    The customer doesn't, and shouldn't, care about the costs or the value of labor by the craftsman in his shop. What they should care about is that an 15K kitchen in a 400K home is going to look like a 15K kitchen in a 400K home, but a well-done custom kitchen is going to look 'WOW'.
    Bingo. Well said; the whole post actually but the last part really is what a custom shop has to get across.

    As a craftsperson building quality is your job, but if you want to stay in business you probably aren't going to survive by only emphasizing this to clients. They just want to know its going to last.

    People want the "Wow" and "Gee Whiz" if they are spending the extra $ for custom. They want to see it and they want to hear it from guests.

    Sometimes I think my whole job (design wise) is getting customers beyond the rational and into the emotional mode.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    odessa, missouri
    Posts
    1,931
    Blog Entries
    2
    "As for the custom cabinet makers my thoughts went like this - Wow, there sure are a lot of custom cabinet makers - These guys must really be scrambling to stay in business in this economy - A guy could probably get a good deal now (lots of competition and desperation to stay afloat) on a full kitchen - I'm glad I'm not starting a custom cabinetry shop."

    Actually you wont. We are a three man shop and turn about 450,000. Bacause the economy hurt the larger 5 million dollar shops they just closed there doors. The left over contracts got spread out amongst the smaller shops. We are taking everything but pricing is firm and we are a bit selective on jobs.

    Sometimes you might score a good deal but sometimes you end up getting corners cut to make up the loses. Hit or miss you just dont know...

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Buffalo, NY
    Posts
    1,733
    Wow, Eric! That was a good rant - I believe your thoughts are right on the money there, and you answered the OP's question. Well done!

    Brian
    It’s only work if somebody makes you do it.
    A day can really slip by when you're deliberately avoiding what you're supposed to do.
    Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side and it binds the universe together.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Near Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    1,056
    There's one thing being overlooked though. Telling people to show the good in their work is good advice. However, expecting all small cabinet shop owners to be salesmen, or to hire salesman, is a little misguided.

    The fact is, making money is not the primary reason for existence for ALL small businesses. Many small businesses are run by people who love their company or their job. They may not enjoy being salesmen, and they may not enjoy hiring salesmen. If one of these people makes a good living, and enjoys their job, there is no reason they have to be salesmen also.

    There may not be many people like that, but they are out there.

  7. #67
    I am one of them. I consider myself a good salesman however I loath self promotion and look to my work to do it for me, and it has for many many years. I can easily imagine if I were a shameless self promoter and an aggressive entrepreneur I could perhaps double or triple my gross annual sales, hire more staff, and *perhaps* make more money. That said, it would be coupled with a lot more headaches, a likely reduction in quality, and all the other associated issues.

    My personal feeling is if someone is interested in earning an honest living doing what they love it is easily achievable letting the work speak for itself if their compensatory expectations are reasonable. If you are aiming for the stereotypical American dream of a 6k sq' house, three car garage, hummer, Mercedes, sitting in the office, or perhaps not at all, and not being out on the shop floor, then building the business is essential.

    Mark

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Western Nebraska
    Posts
    4,680
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Quadarella View Post
    There's one thing being overlooked though. Telling people to show the good in their work is good advice. However, expecting all small cabinet shop owners to be salesmen, or to hire salesman, is a little misguided.

    The fact is, making money is not the primary reason for existence for ALL small businesses. Many small businesses are run by people who love their company or their job. They may not enjoy being salesmen, and they may not enjoy hiring salesmen. If one of these people makes a good living, and enjoys their job, there is no reason they have to be salesmen also.

    There may not be many people like that, but they are out there.
    Peter, I'd argue that as a matter of fact, making money is actually the point of all small businesses, and that goal is not incompatible with enjoying your job. Also, if you are selling a product, how can you not be a salesman? Sales might continue in spite of the owners ineptitude, for a while, but it sure leave the business vulnerable to any competition. Customers who believe they are not treated well, but are forced to do business with a specific company, will be back as rarely as possible.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Northfield, Mn
    Posts
    1,227
    The absolute best customers you can have are the ones who are trying to prove how trully succesfull they are by spending what little they have. Folks trying to keep up with the neighbors and just want to brag about what they spent. These tributes to materialism were my bread and butter for quite a while. So long as the check doesn't bounce, I'm more than willing to add to your illusions.

    My worst tribute as a business owner is that I am not a salesman. Take it or leave it is kinda been my attitude with alot of things. I try to point out the benifits, if the customer can't see what having something that is trully designed around their whims, wants and needs then I'm probably not the best person to hire. Quality alone doesn't sell that well on its own, but it does build a reputation.

    and I'm in this solely for the money. It stopped being fun a long time ago.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bolton View Post
    I am one of them. I consider myself a good salesman however I loath self promotion and look to my work to do it for me, and it has for many many years. I can easily imagine if I were a shameless self promoter and an aggressive entrepreneur I could perhaps double or triple my gross annual sales, hire more staff, and *perhaps* make more money. That said, it would be coupled with a lot more headaches, a likely reduction in quality, and all the other associated issues.

    My personal feeling is if someone is interested in earning an honest living doing what they love it is easily achievable letting the work speak for itself if their compensatory expectations are reasonable. If you are aiming for the stereotypical American dream of a 6k sq' house, three car garage, hummer, Mercedes, sitting in the office, or perhaps not at all, and not being out on the shop floor, then building the business is essential.

    Mark
    Mark,
    if you aren't out to make a profit, then its a hobby. Nothing wrong with that at all. However hobbies are activities for people with other sources of income. If you are dependent on the income and are satisfied with what you make and don't have stiff competition, then I don't see a problem.

    If what you love doing is working with wood, then time spent with customers can be a burden. That's where it is helpful to have someone to run the business side of things and talk to the customer and crunch the numbers, etc. There are people who enjoy doing that as much as you enjoy your work.

    Sure, there is a little more overhead in having an employee, but if you just call them "sales and general manager" you can make them deal with most of it. When they aren't talking with a customer they can sweep up and help lift sheets of plywood

  11. #71
    If it hasn't already been said before, you HAVE to be some sort of a salesman. If I were a cabinetmaker and running my own business (not hobby), it would be essential.

    One cannot bid, fabricate and install cabinets if one cannot sell them, period. This is not to say that you won't get any work, but that you won't reach your true potential.

    Referrals are HUGE in any trade, but they can only take you so far, trust me, I know this first hand. You have to express your strong points verbally because you can bet the other 4 bidders are. I have been in the field and know first hand. Tell the truth about what you do and how you do it and let the cards fall where the fall.

    There is a certain customer that will realize that your cabinets are built better, but still won't put out the money for many reasons (maybe they just can't afford it or can't justify the value). Others could care less about how well you made them and will compare them to the Home Center vendors till their last breath. Yet others will be happy with Mills Pride even if they could afford the best because they like the white look (I've seen that also, believe it or not). I don't "own" a cabinet shop, but have dabbled in a few things here and there.

    My kitchen cabinets were $3,600 in May of 1997, a short 12 years ago. Solid maple drawer fronts with a raised panel for the doors and a clear finish. Our kitchen cabinets would now cost over $10,000 and they go UP from there. That is not installed.

    We priced them recently for the "fun of it". I told my wife, be prepared to be shocked and she was. Keep in mind, that we are talking about a Home Center and they make huge dollars on installed sales. Home Depot netted 1.2 billion dollars in 2006, if my memory is correct. Cabinets are a HUGE part of that, and I do mean HUGE.

    I know someone who was so busy that he could barely keep up with the demand (3 years ago) and had to max his credit cards to keep up with payroll until the checks actually started coming in from the Home Center. His company was 2nd in the country for installing cabinets for one of the big 3 Home Centers. Again, his company did not make them, but installed them.

    Hey, just my personal take on the subject. The market is what the market is.

    David
    Life is a gift, not a guarantee.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Geneva, Swisscheeseland
    Posts
    1,501
    I don't know if I would always call Borg cabinets inexpensive. LOML and I were at the blue one and checked out the price for two 18"x36" white painted maple bathroom vanities with beadboard pannels. It came out to over 2k! That is twice what I was expecting from the Borg.

    Once we are ready to do this bathroom project, I will probably see if there are any Creekers with cabinet experience in my area that can help me with this project.

    Dan
    A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish.

  13. #73
    Gee this thread has bloomed.


    I'll be back later. No time for me to add to the discussion right now.

    Steve


  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Waco, Texas
    Posts
    261
    I don't think that the Borg cabinets are cheap, either. We priced some with what I'd consider decent features - solid plywood construction, solid drawer construction and slide hardware, etc., and it was not much cheaper than custom, plus I couldn't get a committment on installation costs. If you're paying $25-35k more for custom than the Borg, you're probably not comparing apples to apples by any means. They might LOOK alike on the outside...

    When my wife and I started pricing options - with her liking the options that showed, and my adding options that didn't show - like the thicker plywood construction, upgraded slides, etc., the price soon rose dramatically, to where I'd be more inclined to hire a local, professional, custom cabinet guy because I know the install is going to go more smoothly. Borg will have to wait weeks to get a spacer board or trim piece ordered and shipped if the installers screw one up or misorder, which happens. Local guy goes back to the shop and mills a new one. You pay for this even though you can't see it in the end product.

    1) Quality of build.
    2) Quality of materials in many cases.
    3) Installation smoothness.
    4) Service after installation.

    All of these you have to consider. And if you're the cabinet guy, it's better to explain this than to send someone packing because they ask the question.

    This applies to everyone's job. I'm a CPA by day, and a $500 tax return isn't for everyone. H&R Block provides tax return service for much less. But there's differences in service and knowledge that makes the services of a tax accountant worth the extra money to many people. The same principles apply to almost everyone in every job.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    odessa, missouri
    Posts
    1,931
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clardy View Post
    Gee this thread has bloomed.


    I'll be back later. No time for me to add to the discussion right now.

    Steve
    You aint missing much brother. Just a bunch of Blah blah....

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •