[OP]
Member
I understand that the wood and hardware itself isn't cheap, but I was wondering why custom kitchen cabinetry can cost $25k, $35k, or more? What percentage of that cost is material vs. labor? And is the customer paying more for the time that it takes to build them or the skill?
Member
Yes. And yes.Originally Posted by jeff begin
Member
Not as expensive as custom surgery.
Member
Jeff, I'm definetly an amatuer, but I built a kitchen for hire once. I charged a price that I thought was high when I quoted, but as it turns out, I should have doubled it to make a good profit. First, it was more work than expected, second, working around the customers living and payment schedule takes time, and third, cabinets are way more expensive to build than meets the eye.
The pros have a bunch of education, time, and equipment invested, and that is expensive. That is why custom cabinets cost so much, and that is why if I ever loose my sanity and build another kitchen for hire, I will make better money at it too.
Contributor
One of two reasons....
Time or money
A company like Craft Maid has millions of dollars in machinery to pump out junk particleboard boxes with mediocre fronts. They have to pay for all of those machines, and the unskilled labor to run them along with all of the normal overhead, plus on top of that the have to pay all of the office staff that organizes and sells this junk. Lots of money.....
A craftsman working in a small shop has more money per box invested in tools, even though he has less tooling, he is not pumping out thousands of boxes per day. Instead you are paying for generally better quality materials, and a lot more time per unit by skilled workers. There are some small shops copying the methods of the large conglomerates, particle board and all, but by and large you get a better product in a small shop because of the care and skill of the owners/craftsmen. Due to economy of scale, hardware will cost the small shop at least double of the giants, plywood instead of ground up wood with a photo of wood on it costs more, so forth and so on. Add to that the normal overhead of owning a business.
Do you think it should be cheaper for a hand made cabinet? Why would a better product cost less? I am confused.
Last edited by Rob Russell; 02-09-2009 at 5:18 PM.
Member
runs around $7K with installation included, no countertops. Dovetailed drawer boxes on full extension glides. Raised panel rail and stile doors and crown molding to trim it out. Lazy susans are built by me for maximum access and storage (no center poles). Cases are 3/4" thick throughout including the backs. My pricing allows a reasonable profit for my brother and myself after the material is purchased and provides excuses to buy additional equipment and upgrades for myself. Obviously this is not my main source of income. It is my outlet and I am satisfied with the return. How many kitchens would you like?
Ed
Member
Larry and Ed made some good points. The only thing I can add is custom ANYTHING is expensive. I am small time, 4 to 6 kitchens a year. I have around 100 hours invested in an average kitchen, around 200 hours in a large truly custom kitchen ( 25% of the hours are hired help). I have a considerable investment in machinery and tooling that cost money to to keep running.
Most people make a good living at there job, and all it cost them is the gas to get there. Most people will also gladly pay a plumber with a bucket of tools $65 an hour ( no offence to the plumbers).
So when I am hired, the customer is paying for my skill, my employee, insurance, machinery, tooling, gas, everything it cost to run a business.
Member
Having worked in the bowels of one of the cabinet suppliers to the Borg, let me reiterate: Sausage is good to eat, but you're better off not seeing how it's made.
Mass production of cabinetry is a whole different world from custom work. Our goal was simple: make 1000s of cabinets as efficiently and as economically as possible. Can we save a dollar here? Let's try. Will this fly? Let's try. One example was a discussion we had on whether or not we actually had to put clear coat on the backs of drawer fronts. Not a big issue you may think, but it calculates out to thousands of dollars when you consider the scope. Also, we hired right off the street, didn't matter if individual had woodworking interest, let alone any skill level. How much quality craftsmanship can you really buy for $9.50 per hour?
Did we ever try to grain match doors. Nope. Ever sort lumber in the hopes of finding pieces that would be interesting in terms of center panels or drawer front styles? Nope.
One last thing I would argue, is that there are many pricing levels of work, even from the major suppliers. Our job was to build cabinetry to the "lower/middle economic class". Another plant focused on "high end" (even some of those prices would make custom seem cheap).
Tear apart custom cabinetry and see the construction and detail. Tear apart the average retailed purchase cabinets and see where they did the "Oh my", "What the .....??", and the "You can't do that......."'s.
In the end, the price is commensurate to the quality invested.
Member
Often no tearing apart necessary -- they fall apart all on their own.
I've been appalled at what passes for commercially acceptable in some of the mid- to lower-end stuff that gets installed in houses.
And I'll echo Jay... have you seen what plumbers are getting these days?
Member
That seems a little on the low side. Is that for paint grade or stain grade?
Member
20' of cabinets assuming 10' lower and 10' upper at 36" could be done for 7K if I used oak and raised panels. There wouldn't be anything fancy like crown molding and the shelves would be square edge banded. I wouldn't turn $50 an hour labor but I would get more than I make at my real job and still cover overhead.
Everything about a custom job is expensive, from the design to the construction.
A large kitchen with a tall pantry and lots of extras could easily reach 25K.
Joe
JC Custom WoodWorks
For best results, try not to do anything stupid.
"So this is how liberty dies...with thunderous applause." - Padmé Amidala "Star Wars III: The Revenge of the Sith"
Contributor
Well there you go.
No offense, but if you are trying to make a living at this, you have to cover a lot of overhead in space, equipment, insurance; pay employees (including non-producing ones like office staff), taxes, and benefits; make a profit so you can retire; etc. I'm not complaining about it, just pointing out why custom cabinets from a professional cabinet shop cost more.
JR
Member
I just purchased custom cabinets for my house which was completed Nov 08. I dont think the cost was really all that out of line from mass produced stuff. I think the difference was $21,000 vs $26,000, which did not include kitchen countertops. So how are they better? The grain matching and selection is really outstanding, all of the door panels look like one board, so much so that even I have a hard time finding a glue line in some of them. Also, I have a bank of drawers, following the grain pattern from left to right I can easily see that the drawer fronts are cut from the same board in sequential fashion. Try getting that from a mass produced product. But I would say the biggest benefit from my experience was the time spent by the owner, and master craftsman, with me. I literally would meet or talk with him several times per week about various things. His expertise and knowledge is VASTLY more than the salesmen from the big box store would have. His input is what made my home go from "really nice" to "WOW!".
Member
Jeff, I make furniture for a living, but hired Crown-Point to make my kitchen. This is my kitchen (my kitchen is the one in the photos), $27,000.00 in cabs alone (in 2003). I wouldn't do it for that. Counting finished side panels, there are 50 'doors'.
http://www.crown-point.com/styles/ac...ndCrafts1.html
.
"I love the smell of sawdust in the morning".
Robert Duval in "Apileachips Now". - almost.
Laserpro Spirit 60W laser, Corel X3
Missionfurnishings, Mitchell Andrus Studios, NC
Contributor
In the old days a rough rule of thumb is 4 times material. But of course that doesn't take into account quality, number of draws on and on.
When pricing I also advice fervently that you think about the dangers involved and potential injury to you doing the work for them. I don't mean just the table saw either. Why should the customer who goes to their clean safe high paying job not pay us our propers. We are under valued compared to other trades. Everyone is a wood worker and thinks what we do for a living is easy. I joke that when I am at a show I should hang a sign "I know your husband can, but will he." Actually I try to be an adviser to the customer and be concerned about their interest and problem and try to increase the value of my goods by being a problem solver to them. When they buy what we make they are buying a piece of us. We are the added value. I could go on but I will spare you.
Take care Tony
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