Do you think Computers are taking over the Cabinet trade?

[M. A. Espinoza]

Part of the reason that I moved away from cabinets is that the automated factorys were doing better and better imitations of good woodworking, so much so that I was tired of trying to explain less and less of a difference. I started doing more and more complicated things in my design just to seperate myself from the Borg, but in the end people are only after the illusion of quality. There is still no comparison between what I produce and what the mass producers sell, but to the eye it is less and less apparent, and for this I give credit to CNC.

I toured a factory that puts out thousands of units a day, and there is no way I can compete with that, and no way I would want to. It is no longer woodwork at some point, and woodwork is what I choose to do.

I would not get into the woodworking business again if I was a young man, I would find something else, glassblowing, blacksmithing, who knows....

QFT.

I saw this in retail furniture. Used to be that imported furniture looked like the junk that it was. In the last few years they've improved their finishing so much and stolen better designs so the average customer can't tell it from a quality piece.

We sold pieces that were all MDF and particle board cheap $, but huge in size. A double dresser could be in excess of 200 lbs, very likely to be damaged or pull apart if the owners ever decide to move it. Had the feeling its next home would likely be the landfill.

The McMansion crowd ate them up. We would deliver them and their houses were like macro versions of the furniture. All trim on the street side, looked like an outbuilding from the back yard.

If the finish is dark and even, and drawers work smoothly=heirloom. That isn't a criticism of the public it just seems to be how it works.

CNC really seems to put the pressure on shops to differentiate themselves in order to survive. Because from just appearances the overseas stuff can now be indistinguishabe from well-built to the average consumer.

I'm not anti-computer at all; I do think its just another tool. The problem is learning curve and entry price point, neither the education nor the equipment is cheap.

I think for the small shop owner CNC opens up so many more possibilities for success. Its learning how to utilize the technology for best effect that doesn't come intuitively for those of us that have learned the old ways of shop work.

Its like learning how to work all over again.

I'm far enough from retirement (but its out there) that I feel like I have to learn CNC ways or I'll be working for less and less money in ten or fifteen years. Frankly I would rather hand cut dovetails but that doesn't help as much on a resume if I can't survive as an independent shop.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Don't computers give us a way to compete with China as well? A robot in China probably costs the same as a robot in the US, but a worker in China is far cheaper than the counter part in the USA? At that point, the shipping becomes the issue, which we can win at. Might be missing something here...

[David DeCristoforo]

This is not a variation on the "hand tools vs power tools" debate. The reason is simple. For an example, let's look at a computer controlled carving machine. Yes it has to be programmed and yes a human does the programming. But after that, a human hand has absolutely no involvement in the production of the carvings. It's not like a human is doing the carving and it's a discussion about the chisel being an air powered tool or a traditional "mallet driven" tool. In addition, cutting edge 3D scanning technology allows a carving to be scanned and the coordinates fed directly to the carving machine so that even the programming is done by the computer. This technology also makes it possible to scan a table leg, for example, that was carved by some long dead unknown carver so that even the necessity of being able to design such a table leg is no longer necessary. We are into something way beyond the "hand tool/power tool" thing here....

[M. A. Espinoza]

Don't computers give us a way to compete with China as well? A robot in China probably costs the same as a robot in the US, but a worker in China is far cheaper than the counter part in the USA? At that point, the shipping becomes the issue, which we can win at. Might be missing something here...

I guess I didn't get that point across. I was trying to say that technology is taking away one of the advantages but I think we need to use technology to stay ahead by increasing our versatility. So it increases our ability to compete locally by giving capabilities a small shop may not have had previously, i.e. carving or inlay.

This is not a variation on the "hand tools vs power tools" debate. The reason is simple. For an example, let's look at a computer controlled carving machine. Yes it has to be programmed and yes a human does the programming. But after that, a human hand has absolutely no involvement in the production of the carvings. It's not like a human is doing the carving and it's a discussion about the chisel being an air powered tool or a traditional "mallet driven" tool. In addition, cutting edge 3D scanning technology allows a carving to be scanned and the coordinates fed directly to the carving machine so that even the programming is done by the computer. This technology also makes it possible to scan a table leg, for example, that was carved by some long dead unknown carver so that even the necessity of being able to design such a table leg is no longer necessary. We are into something way beyond the "hand tool/power tool" thing here....

On the level you are discussing I understand your point. I can design far better with a pencil and paper than computer. But I wonder if its simply because pencil and paper is how I learned to document my ideas, now if I had learned on computer...

But there is the more esoteric aspect that I think parallels music in the more artistic and creative side of woodworking. Using a computer keyboard to trigger cello sounds is not the same as holding a cello and playing. You will create different things without the physical feedback and experience of learning the instrument.

So I think there is something to be said for the interaction of carving tool and workpiece and the carver vs CNC in what is created.

Would a sculptor make better art if he learned manual methods or if he was never restricted and simply could just make ideas happen with CNC?

My feeling is that the discipline, repetition and time required for learning a craft is vital to the quality of what is eventually created but that just could be because I'm old.

[Tony Bilello]

And the time to learn to use it.
The possabilities are endless.

[Larry Edgerton]

This is not a variation on the "hand tools vs power tools" debate. The reason is simple. For an example, let's look at a computer controlled carving machine. Yes it has to be programmed and yes a human does the programming. But after that, a human hand has absolutely no involvement in the production of the carvings. It's not like a human is doing the carving and it's a discussion about the chisel being an air powered tool or a traditional "mallet driven" tool. In addition, cutting edge 3D scanning technology allows a carving to be scanned and the coordinates fed directly to the carving machine so that even the programming is done by the computer. This technology also makes it possible to scan a table leg, for example, that was carved by some long dead unknown carver so that even the necessity of being able to design such a table leg is no longer necessary. We are into something way beyond the "hand tool/power tool" thing here....

This brings up one of the points that concerns me. It is now possible for a no talent individual to steal the intelectual property of any craftsman simply by buying one of his pieces and scanning it, and having it built in some third world country. This theft of the one advantage that the lone craftsmen had, his unique style that was difficult to copy. Why develop a new style only to see it cheapened by stolen copys?

I, with my brother designed and manufacturered an air tool rack, applied for patents, and started to sell it to catalog sale outfits. Then a Chinese company started making copys for less for one of the companys we were dealing with, and there was not enough money in it to bother fighting so we just stopped production.

So why would I bother to design anything that will just be stolen? I have a couple of nice designs that I would like to market, but I just don't have the heart for it. I am a woodworker, not a politician......

[Chip Lindley]

The notion of computers, and their *taking over* can be likened to the notion of *horseless carriages* making horses obsolete! There was much kicking and screaming by horse collar makers and blacksmiths, BUT everyone wanted a new car when they were finally made affordable to the general public by Henry Ford. They were not just a specialized toy for the priviledged few any more! The automobile became a staple of the American way of life. America survived the *horseless carriage* revolution, and we shall survive this *computer revolution* a century later! The irony in all this comes from the book of Ecclesiastes, "There is nothing new under the sun." We humans only discover it, and put it to our own uses. It was there all along!

I SMIRK at the many who lambast computers in this thread! They could not access SMC without being ONLINE!

[Peter Quadarella]

Ah yes, but then the blacksmith and collar maker jobs turned into factory line work. Where's the quality of life in that? The efficiencies gained by computers just meant that people worked long hours at a computer instead of with pen and paper.

I was all on board the progress bandwagon, until I started realizing that we are working longer hours than ever before. We used to scoff at the Japanese and the hours they put in, but the U.S. passed them by a few years ago. I read an article stating that Gen Xers have less wealth and free time than their Baby Boomer parents. 2 income earners in a family is the standard, if not the requirement.

If all this is true, what are the more efficient machines really buying us? With the speed we are doing things, shouldn't we be able to sit on the beach while the CNC does its job?

What us progress cheerers forgot was the spirit of competitiveness. We have to move faster to compete, and faster and faster. I'm not sure where it will lead. One good side effect is that some small business are able to compete on a more level playing field than the big guys. Hopefully the good will outweigh the bad in the long run, but so far I haven't seen it.

[John Sanford]

Ah yes, but then the blacksmith and collar maker jobs turned into factory line work. Where's the quality of life in that? The efficiencies gained by computers just meant that people worked long hours at a computer instead of with pen and paper.

I was all on board the progress bandwagon, until I started realizing that we are working longer hours than ever before.

Actually, we aren't. The average hours of work put in by the blue collar and tradesman has gone down, and leisure time has gone up. It's the service workers, especially the management and professionals, who've taken to longer hours. Yeah, I was surprised to find that out as well...

'Puters are tools. Some folks will have a knack for using them creatively. There are some mighty fine carvers out there who can do wonderful things with a chainsaw or powercarving, but can barely carve their own initials with a pocketknife. It'll be the same with CNC.

The intellectual property aspects raised are more important, and time will see how that one goes.

[Denny Rice]

This brings up one of the points that concerns me. It is now possible for a no talent individual to steal the intelectual property of any craftsman simply by buying one of his pieces and scanning it, and having it built in some third world country. This theft of the one advantage that the lone craftsmen had, his unique style that was difficult to copy. Why develop a new style only to see it cheapened by stolen copys?

I, with my brother designed and manufacturered an air tool rack, applied for patents, and started to sell it to catalog sale outfits. Then a Chinese company started making copys for less for one of the companys we were dealing with, and there was not enough money in it to bother fighting so we just stopped production.

So why would I bother to design anything that will just be stolen? I have a couple of nice designs that I would like to market, but I just don't have the heart for it. I am a woodworker, not a politician......

Larry,

This is exactly what happened to me in the Commercial Photography Industry. I had a talent that had been crafted for almost 2 decades, shooting slide film on a 4X5 camera for people like Delta faucet and RCA then digital photography came along and the whole industry feel apart IMHO. What I mean by that is it took a craft that took a lot of training and dedication to a job that a trained monkey can do today. Its really sad, not just for what happened to me but it has taken a lot of creativity and SKILL out of the profession. At one time a designer would spend maybe 2 hrs working on a set, the photographer would pull roids till he or she thought the exposure was dead on then expose the film. Now you put a digital back in the camera, hit the button on the computer and wait 3 minutes. If you don't like it, you throw it away in the computers trash can and hit the button again. A very boring job indeed. Anyone with a scanner can steal anything, its been happening to photographers for a long time. The digital age has screwed the "artist" indeed.