Country of Origin and Quality of Tools

[John Hedges]

What you have to remember is what the countries are geared towards. I have a friend who runs a sourcing company in China, and we had a long conversation about this very subject the last time he was in country. Generally speaking when a company wants to produce a product cheaply China is the first place they look. Why, because the labor is so cheap that they can do if for a lot less. Generally speaking this is a labor force geared towards mass production not quality per se. In other countries where the labor market is more expensive, quality is expected and demanded because it is more expensive. If not better, they generally don't stay in production for long, so they spend more time and money training the smaller workforce to build higher quality products because that is their niche. I have found of late that the products produced in Taiwan tend to be of higher quality than their Chinese counterparts. hence companies like Sawstop, PM etc. have moved there.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The president of Grizzley has actually posted here that to improve the quality of their products, he actually hired an engineer to live in the factory IIRC. This person is responsible to Grizzley for the quality of the products coming out of that factory for Grizzley. Again, you get what you pay for........ To say that everything coming from China or any other country is junk or jewels is a too generalized statement.

I was a "Chevy" man until I bought a full sized '83 Blazer. 5 transmissions in 4 1/2 years.....41,000 miles. It was manufactured here in the good old USA. Chevrolet's casual and callused attitude towards resolving the transmission and brake issues changed my attitude. I bought a 1 year old Toyota 4-Runner and drove it for 16 years and 163,000 miles before trading it off and buying a new Honda Accord.

Country of origin has nothing to do with quality. You get what you pay for.....

[Mark Bolton]

Personally, coming from my own business experience it has absolutely nothing to do with the country of origin. The country in which a product is manufactured means absolutely nothing. What means something is to what specifications and standards (product, workers, environment) they are manufacturing.

The simple fact of the matter is these countries are manufacturing to the exact specifications you the consumer tell the manufacturer you are willing to pay for. This is coupled with the maximum profit margin that manufacturer can extract along side your spec's. You cant expect much when a population for the most part goes the way of the yellow smiley face with all its short and long term repercussions over more quality choices. Now we are at the point where we have eliminated most of our "choices".

What is more sad is how proficient marketers have become in the past 20 years at making you buy what they can best extract profit from. This is the Wal-mart, Borg, model. These companies really dont care what you want to buy, they more aim to make you buy what they can profit from.

Even more is how in the past 20 years we have seen a steady degradation of what the average consumer seems to feel they deserve for their hard earned dollar. When we wander into these places saying "well what other choice do I have" its really a shame as we have eliminated our own choices. The proverbial shot in the foot. We are somehow to believe that we should accept poor quality and make up for the products shortcomings at our own expense. Home centers are full of these items when even 5 years ago, for just a few dollars more, you could get a quality product elsewhere. Now, the alternate items are fewer and fewer and in many cases simply non existent.

Its a tangled web we weave,
Mark

[Myk Rian]

I look for a "Made in USA" tag first. Price is not my first concern.
I bought some 36" Jorgensen bar clamps at the HoPo for $8ea on sale.
I also bought some Jet 36" bar clamps from Rockler for $7ea on sale.
Well, no matter what the regular price is on either one of them, I'll pass on the Jet clamps. Everything about them is 1/2 what the Jorgensens are. Bar thickness, thread thickness, castings. You tighten the Jet clamps, the bars bend inward. Junk.
I'll stay with the HoPo Jorgensen tools. Made in the USA.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Actually, judging by your name, Grandpa comes from the same country as yours



I don't think this is offensive, but rather brings an important aspect to the topic. When we look at human effort throughout history it becomes obvious that quality of manufacture/construction appears to be cyclical. Take the Chinese. They used to make quality products when Germans still used sticks and stones for most of their "industrial" activities, and the English as we know them didn't exist as a nation. Nobody even thought something called America would ever exist - Nostradamus wasn't born yet.

Mayans, Inkas, Egyptians, Greeks were producing architectural marvels, some of which appear of much better quality that anything built in Germanic countries even today, and without a Unisaw or Ridgid in site.

Social conditions and ideology/religion seem to have a big impact. The protestant countries generally fare better as work ethic and money making drive found its way into the religious beliefs. In short, the protestant religions were shaped by the growing middle class or manufacturers and merchants.

In Eastern Europe religion shaped the merchants and manufacturers - they weren't exactly despised but often seen as too lowly to be allowed any impact on religion, state affairs etc. Still, they created masterpieces of art, albeit a lot methodically destroyed by none others than quality driven Germans.

Those enterprising minds which could not find fertile ground in their countries simple left to reach greener pastures where things such as communist ideology (as an example) didn't hamper people's desire to move on. Computers, for instance, were considered a product of the "rotten West" and "capitalist garbage". Now Google's headquarters are in Poland. Siemens is there, so is HP and just recently Dell. The same people, with the same skills live there. The only thing that changed is the political system.

Conditions people live in are also important. It is hard to imagine how a person living in a straw hut could understand the concept of high gloss paint, 0.001" tolerance in woodworking, or appreciate the benefits of Leight FMT Jig, which btw. costs more than combined yearly incomes of one or more villages in some countries.

Darius, Mom's dad from Switzerland, Dad's was from Poland. Me, now I am a full on American mutt.

It's interesting to look at the history of different civilizations and see the events that led them to their eventual fate. I personally think that many years from now, someone will be discussing times, and will be able to point out this point in history as a turning point for our civilization. Hopefully for the better, but I wouldn't take that bet.

It seems that the countries that have been held back for most of a centuary by communisim are finding their stride now, with a lot more potential to grow, while the mature democracies are stagnating. Interesting times.

As a consumer, it's great! Lots of cheap, good products, but I hope the damage done to this country is not permanant.

Sorry, got a bit off subject there.

[Mark Bolton]

Generally speaking this is a labor force geared towards mass production not quality per se.

As another post stated, China has subs operating in the oceans, satellites orbiting the Earth, a space program, and a very advanced civilization any place the government deems it in its own best interest.

The simple fact of the matter is the Chinese have the capacity to make anything we want. That said, we can expect them to supply us with Festool level products when the masses want to pay for Firestorm. I would guarantee you if Festool decided to move production to China with absolutely no reduction in quality it could be done easily. The simple fact of the matter is these type moves are almost always geared towards increased profits with a willful knowledge that quality will be compromised in trade.

They make exactly what we tell them to make. Through our dollars spent, and our corporate profit margins, they make exactly what we pay for.

We have brought this on ourselves,
Mark

[Bill Houghton]

Remember there was a time about 35 years ago when Americans laughed at Japanese cars. They weren't very well built and it was a tough sell.

Indeed. I am reminded that, when I was little (this is back when, to quote a Garfield TV cartoon, all they had were wood-burning cats), much of the cheap junk we found in San Francisco's Chinatown was actually made in Japan. I had a tiny little camera made there that (although I did some amazing things with it) was pretty junky. At the same time, the Asahi Pentax, Nikon, and other Japanese cameras were on track to push the German cameras right off the shelf.

Now, some of the Japanese power tool makers - Makita, Hitachi, etc. - produce tools that are considered top of the line.

Some years back, I bought a $30 bench grinder, made in Taiwan (this is before China was exporting much to us). It was unusable - vibrated right off the bench, and putting a tool on the toolrest was a good way to get a massage right down to your toes. I gave it to a foolish friend, and not much later bought a Delta bench grinder for about $80. It was also made in Taiwan, but the factory was meeting Delta's quality control standards, and I never even had to bolt it down. My contractor son is now using it as his bench grinder (I kept the Baldor grinder we got from my uncle - my son gets it when I'm too old to use it).

With good standards, leadership, training, and capital investment, just about any country can produce good work - the price of the product will reflect the investment.

[Brent Leonard]

It seems that the countries that have been held back for most of a centuary by communisim are finding their stride now, with a lot more potential to grow, while the mature democracies are stagnating. Interesting times.

Wow. Thats certainly something the bend your mind around.

I often wonder....

hearing the stories of my Grandmother (she was a rosie riveter while grandpa was in the Pacific) how the country turned on the industrial machine during WW2. If we found ourselves in a similar situation now, would we as a country be able manufacture like we did during WW2? Or would we have to buy our "stuff" from China?

[Blake Barr]

These threads make me giggle a little. The politically correct people come out of the woodwork to defend china etc and the good ole boys go on about American quality.

Truth be told there is a VERY good reason that products manufactured in these countries are of lower quality. It's because the companies selling the products want them to be. What it boils down to is competitive advantage and how companies compete for our dollars. When a company like say Harbor freight (read orange tools) decides to compete with the likes of Delta, Jet etc they want to produce tools at a lower price and they sacrifice quality to do it. They also decide to manufacture the products in China to save money.

Those companies that are competing on quality are more likely to be smaller, older companies (ie powermatic, rockwell). They likely already have investments in local production facilities and prefer local production that they can have tight control over. Their brand name is of value to them and tarnishing that image with the occasional mishap on quality. The premium brand allows them to charge a premium price so they can afford local labor along with premium parts etc.

There are middle ground companies as well such as Grizzly compete on value. They use foreign manufacturers to compete on price but then pay for better standards, more staff etc to up the quality.

All in all it's not because Chinese or Taiwanese laborers have inferior skillsets, it's that they products they are asked to, and trained produce are inferior.

There is something to be said for engineering quality by region though. Europe and America really do have the best stock of engineers, for now at least. Part of that is because our university systems attract the talent of foreign countires. Then the stability and high wages retain them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I'm not defending China or other countries or their workers and I'm not trying to be politically correct. The price paid for a product will determine the quality of the product regardless of the country of origin. If companies are willing to pay enough, they can get a good quality product manufactured anywhere.

While the Europe and the US may have some good engineers.....recent trends for the best and brightest US HS students is away from engineering. There is more money to be made in other professions.

[Stephen Edwards]

With the International Standards Organization and the specifications for any particular product or process to meet ISO standards, coupled with an inspection process to assure that those particular standards are being met, what difference does it make where a product is manufactured? To me, it doesn't matter. As long as I can get the quality of product that I can afford, I don't care where it's made.

As for the jobs issue, foreign made goods still create jobs in the USA.

One of the most beneficial things about the internet is that we have sooooooo many more choices when we wish to buy a particular product, any product.

I do agree with the OP's comment about how we have allowed ourselves to be conditioned to "just accept" what is offered at places such as the Borgs and WM. However, with a PC (or a Mac!) and an internet connection, even people such as myself who live in a remote area, products of any level of quality in any price range from countries the world over are available with a few keystrokes on a keyboard.

It used to matter where things were manufactured. That's not generally the case anymore. I'm sure that there are a few noteable exceptions.

[Gary Breckenridge]

As I understand it if I buy products made by my neighbor he has the money to buy products that I make. I don't want to buy products made by slave labor, criminals, children or terrorists. Most industrialized countries can make any level of quality product. That said many products are truely international in nature if you consider raw materials, design, production and assembly. Switzerland has so much money that they don't have to make anything but quality products. China has so much poverty that they have to make all levels of products. Starrett, top quality measurment, is truly an international company. On the other hand there is the "Made in ....." label that brushes off with the first use.

[Darius Ferlas]

These threads make me giggle a little. The politically correct people come out of the woodwork to defend china etc and the good ole boys go on about American quality.

I think I am far from being politically correct and I think I stated facts. There are no supernatural powers that set apart an American or German worker form a Vietnamese one. They will both work to specs, and if they cannot cope another Vietnamese worker will take the job and do what is expected. In that you are right then. They offer the quality that is expected of them.

I also disagree, based on fact, that a product is automatically better simply because it was US made. Someone mentioned the superb quality of Jorgensen's clamps. While Jorgensen makes decent products, there are people who think some of their products are sloppy. Just check reviews on Amazon.

Back to political correctness - I would love all those Chinese jobs to come back to the US and Canada. After all both countries boomed when it was unthinkable we would be buying mostly Chinese. The way I see it is that eventually there will be simply no money left in the US to buy even the cheapest tool made in China because few will have any jobs allowing anything above basic sustenance.

OK, that's too close to politics so I better stop here.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks....I will remind you that political statements are against the TOSs and will not be tolerated. These type of threads usually don't last long because some folks can't show enough self discipline to adhere to the policies. Please refrain from any political statements or comments.

Now I'm off my soapbox.....

[Mike Heidrick]

Put it on CL. Price it right. Describe it accurately. No warranties, returns or responsibilities after purchase. Cash only.