Joe.. Do you remember what you paid for that sears stuff new?
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Joe.. Do you remember what you paid for that sears stuff new?
[OP]
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Not 100% certain. I've had a lot of hobbies in the past. However, this is the first time that I've had the space to be able to consider woodworking and so far, I'm hooked. I'm an engineer by trade, so it really fills me need to build things, but I also enjoy the artistic side of things as well. I'm confident enough that I will stick with it that I feel comfortable to begin buying the more expensive, larger tools.Originally Posted by Joe Jensen
No, I don't really care about new. I'm a CL addict who drives a pickup truck. Just point me to the deals. My only reservation is not knowing enough about the equipment to be able to evaluate the quality/condition of the tool before purchase.[/quote]
My father was a tool and die maker who personally built the house I was raised in and helped me rebuild the engine of my first car. While not quite on his level, I learned a lot through osmosis. I'm an avid DIYer around the house and enjoy wrenching on old motorcycles. Getting greasy doesn't intimidate me, but on the flip side, I'd prefer to be spending the little free time I have learning to build furniture rather than replacing the brushes in a 50 yr old motor.
A two car garage that I have to share with the normal assortment of law care stuff and a pair of motorcycles. I also have a 400 sq ft "bonus room" above the garage that I could probably tap as a finishing room, extra storage, and possibly a place to stick a DC and air compressor.
I don't really have an interest in turning pens or bowls, but it would be nice to be able to do spindles occasionally. A lathe would be a ways down on my list of purchases. What I'd like to focus on is doing doing some millwork and builtins for my house to replace all the builder grade pine crap it came with. Furniture is also an interest.
Thanks for all the questions and info. I'll focus my efforts finding used equipment. Michigan has a pretty sizable WW community and stuff shows up on CL with some frequency.
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Jeff,
If you're willing to buy older machines and rehab them, it really opens up your world. I'm almost finished with the restoration of a Powermatic 81, a 20" bandsaw. I got this machine for a song, and when I'm finished it will exceed any of the machines I would have considered buying new. Some experts over at the OWWM forum speculate that this saw, when restored, is equivalent to a $10,000 machine in today's market. It sold for almost $5,000 when it went out of production in 1997, but can routinely be found for $1000 or less today.
So, if old machines are a possibility for you, go for it. It can turn into a hobby itself. The biggest challenge is finding the used machines.
Last edited by Ben West; 02-22-2009 at 1:02 PM.
Where will you be when you get where you're going? -- Jerry Clower
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I have had a lot of trouble with Powermatic equipment,USA made,since 1960's,then,Asian made later on. In my opinion,they have been running on the name for several years. A brand I never liked.
I never liked the amount of pot metal that even the oldest deltas used,either,though I love my old 14" bandsaw,and my 1950's 20" bandsaw. The only thing wrong with those bandsaws,is that the thumb screws on the blade guides always manage to work loose in their pot metal castings. The old Delta jigsaws have a pot metal casting inside their crankshafts that is frequently broken. They want about $200.00 for a replacement. I let a young guy make a steel replacement for his down in Williamsburg. BEWARE of "Historic Parts" prices from Delta!!!
My old Dewalt 10" table saw beats the heck out of any Delta or Powermatic ever made. It weighs 200# more than a unisaw. Its arbor bearings are several inches apart,not just 2 bearings jammed in together. Every casting is bigger,so are the tilting gears and worms. The fence doesn't move when you lock it.
Why didn't it fly? Well,they made the arbor 3/4" instead of 5/8". I have to bore out any blade I get. Back in the old days,blades used to come with a push out bushing for 3/4",but not now. This is what happens when manufacturers get too greedy,and try to make you only buy their blades,etc..
The Dewalt is so much smoother running than any other saw ever made,it's too bad it didn't catch on. Probably also relates to how much advertising money a company can spend,or is wiling to spend.
Now I am stuck with a saw that is so good that I cannot buy one of those sexy looking Saw Stop saws !!! I've had the Dewalt since 1963,and am BORED!!!!!!!
Last edited by george wilson; 02-22-2009 at 10:27 AM.
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Sounds like you’re getting some good advice. I would add a few things to what already has been said.
Over the years I have signed up for evening division woodworking classes at my local vocational schools. It can be a good way to meet other woodworkers and have an opportunity to use some large scale industrial equipment to help you get started. The instructors may be able to give you some good advice and it is an opportunity to learn the most important lesson – Safety. My actual experience is that the quality of the equipment and instruction is variable and if you have choices look around before selecting one. One of the schools I used to attend had very good prices on wood and plywood which help defray the cost of the course. The one I currently attend does not do this although they have arranged for a discount at local lumber dealers. For the cost of $125.00 ($100.00 if I were a resident of the town the school is located in) I get 9 classes with access to a 36” planner, 16” jointer, European sliding table saw along with various other industrial tools. Even though I have my own workshop and don’t have use for this level of machinery every day it’s handy to have it available for when I do.
Buying used equipment can be a vary good way to start a woodworking shop and with your background you should be able to deal with the issues necessary to tune and repair the equipment. Keep in mind that the may take some time.
Buying new does have a few pluses and minuses. Most of the problems I’ve seen are either caused by shipping damage or are electrical related. This is one of the problems with dealing with mail-order companies such as Grizzly. The will most likely go out of there way to help you but should it be necessary have to ship back a couple of hundred pound machine it can be daunting. Electrical problems can be frustrating to deal with. In general American made motors are much better in this regard but they add significantly to the cost of the machine.
I found that dealing and buying local has several advantages and my local dealers have let me in on several deals which resulted in my getting very good pricing. I have a truck and can usually pick up the machinery myself. I can inspect it at the dealers and if there appears to be a problem it can be corrected before I accept delivery. The dealers are also much more helpful when they know you are a customer instead if a look and buy mail-order.
You might also check and see if there are any woodworking clubs or organizations in you area.
The American Association of Wood turners has many local chapters.
http://www.woodturner.org/
Last edited by Ron Knapp; 02-22-2009 at 10:49 AM.
Contributor
Hello,
Seems like the CL sellers around my area don't subscribe to that idea/If you buy used, you will likely recoup all that you spend if you either upgrade later, or stop the hobby. If you buy new, you will lose 30-50% of your investment if you sell piece by piece or 50-70% if you sell all as a lot.
One guy is offering a "like new" 2 gallon CH compressor for *only* $90.00.
It's the same one Loews sells new for $79.00 - and the same one that Lowes had marked down to $49.00 at some stores a month ago.
LOL! The guy even had the gall to go to Lowes website and download a picture of it!
A few weeks ago, someone was selling a Chicago bisquit joiner for $90.00 - the same one HF sells new for $39.00.
I gave up on CL pretty much.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." - John Lennon
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My dad bought the following for $100 in about 1970.Joe.. Do you remember what you paid for that sears stuff new?
Sears 10" table saw
Atlas/Sears 6" Jointer
Delta lathe
Delta scroll saw
We did all the cope and stick shaping for a complete kitchen with a Sears molding cutter in the table saw. That was a super scary setup, sound like an airplane in the shop.
Later he added a 1/2" arbor Sears shaper. Back then a 1HP router was large. I think the shaper had a 1/2HP motor. We cut the lumber from downed ash and walnut trees on our property. Back then we could have a 10ft 30" diameter log sawn for $45. Dad bought an old 30" 1890s planer that we ran with a wide belt driven by a 45HP gas Wisconson engine.
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In 1970 $100 was what about $550 is today
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I have to agree with you as far as CL in the Houston, Tx area also.
I often wondered if these people are really getting close to the advertised price. Some of the best deals I see on CL are $500 for a 5 year old machine that currently cost $600 new.
As for refurbishing old equipment, that should depend on your available time, mechanical skills and interests. At that point you have to decide if your hobby will be woodworking or tool refurbishing. Also consider that just because a tool is old that does not make it better and because a tool is new it is not necessarily inferior.
I have owned Delta tools in the past and own new Delta tools now. I have not seen any decline in quality that I hear about on here.
I buy most of my equipment new. If a good deal comes along on a used tool, I will buy it. But not one that has to be repaired. I enjoy building, not fixing. Others enjoy both.
If you really want to know what tools are best, go to a few cabinet shops and talk to the owners. Mainly the same two brand names will keep cropping up. One is competitively priced and the other is somewhat higher but not outrageous. Anyone care to guess what names they might be?
Last edited by Tony Bilello; 02-22-2009 at 5:23 PM.
Retired, living and cruising full-time on my boat.
Currently on the Little Tennessee River near Knoxville
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Yes, I worry I am more interested in tool refurbishing than woodworking. The General bandsaw I just bought is really impressing me with the casting quality. What a lump of nicely finished steel. Once I get the new tires and link belt it will be dead smooth.
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You are getting lots of good advice here, even if some of it is contradictory. I suggest this means that there are few absolutes when it comes to selecting equipment.
My initial experience in woodworking was to buy great-sounding Sears power tools. Over the years I had to replace these with more robust equipment. I notice that my really high quality purchases are so much more satisying than the cheaper alternatives—long after I have forgotten what they cost, and after enjoying the benefit of better stuff for a long time.
At the stage I needed a jointer I consulted with a local furniture maker. I had decided to go for a Powermatic, but the issue was six-inch or eight-inch. He strongly advised the larger because of the versatility in the future. Good advice! I’m so glad I took it.
I would like to join the group on this thread that suggests getting the brand that best fits your needs. Brand loyalty has little value.
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Jeff,
I did not take a lot of time to read the responses but I did read your question thoroughly.
I'd like to offer my advice. Keep in mind, I love the machinery, almost as much as the hobby.
Given the euro machines are out of your $ range or simply not desired I would do one of two things.
USED USED USED!
Either find the "newish" model you like and wait for it to come up on craigslist. Let someone else take the depreciation hit. Great deals to be had.
Or ...
Restore old Deltas/PM/Olivers etc . . .. if I were to do it over and with the above criteria, I would search for 40's/50's/60'a Delta/PM gear and restore them. I use the term "restore" loosely here. The hardest part of this will be removing and adding bearings. Bearings them selves are cheap. Everything else is just cleaning and repainting.
Either way, do yourself a favor and take the time to buy used.
The quality you can get for a small fraction of new will make you grin ear to ear when it is done. There truly is a difference in the old and new. I'm thinking being from the MI area, there are lots of choices when it comes to old machinery for sale.
Simply my .02 based on several data points . . . Enjoy the procurement either way you choose!
Contributor
There seem to be a lot of sellers on CL that buy stuff on sale and try to resell for more on CL. One has to be patient to buy on CL, and I'm sure a lot depends on where you live. Where ever there was a housing boom, there will be tons of cheap tools. In the past 4 months here in Phx there have been dozens of 3 and 5HP 1 and 3 phase shapers for under $1000. There was even an SCMI T130 shaper that was broken (needed a gear for the raising mechanism) and a 1HP 4 wheel feeder, rusty but only $250. If I had any space I'd have bought and resold. I see the same one on Ebay now with a similar feeder for $3999.
If I knew I was going to stay with WW and I was starting over, and I wanted to build furniture, here is what I'd do. I'd watch for the following used. Set up searches on Ebay for the following within the driving range you can tolerate, and watch Craig's list and the local classifieds every day.
- Used Unisaw with a good fence (I don't care for the Unifence personally) $1000 uni, $1400 PM66
- Used 8" jointer. Most any will be fine, I prefer the older Powermatic, but the newer ones are ok. I sold my nice 1990 PM60 for $700 a couple months ago.
- Used Planer. I see less of the 15-20" planers. I am not budget limited and I still have the PM model 100 12" planer I bought in 1990. I put a Byrd head in a couple of years ago. I see the PM 100 planers about every 3 or for months locally for $500 or so. I see them on ebay for $400-1000 all the time.
- Used 14-20" Drill press. I have a Rockwell from the 50s. It has a 6" stroke and I paid $150 or $175, can't remember
- Used 3HP Delta or PM shaper. (I'm a shaper bigot, I have a router under a table, but no lift or fence system. ($600-800)
Some sample deals - search the Phx CL for shaper, cabinet saw, and jointer. I also have a 14" dewalt RAS, dead accurate 90 degree crosscuts. There is one on CL here for like $500. New from "The Original Saw Company" for like $4500.
Next step up from here is a big one. I upgraded my 8" PM60 jointer with a 60" bed to a 1970 SCMI 12" jointer. I repainted mine, put in new bearings, 3 phase converter, and I put in a Byrd head. I have about $2250 in it. This one has an 84" bed and I am really impressed with the build quality. They don't make the 12" any more, but the same machine in 16" is like $8K. If you live in back east, there are tons of old iron machines that are vastly superior to the new stuff going for really low prices. But, these machines will be 50 years old, and be really large and heavy. My 12" 1970s SCMI jointer is 650lbs, a 12" old iron jointer will be 1200lbs.
If price and space are no object, I have a dream list I'd be happy to share
Last edited by Joe Jensen; 02-22-2009 at 9:44 PM.
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Years ago,I didn't have room for a woodworking machine room for a few years.I loaned my Dewalt table saw to one of the cabinet shop employees. I did have access to the woodworking machines in Col. Williamsburg anyway.
A super critical,high paying side job came along,a special pair of boxes. The guy who designed them had little idea what he was asking for in terms of difficulty. The 1950's Delta Unisaw we had just wasn't up to the job. I had to go to use my Dewalt table saw instead.
These saws sometimes pop up for sale.I have the floor model,not the direct drive contractor's size saw they also offered. If you ever see one for sale in decent shape,I recommend snapping it up. But,you have to get all the blades bored out to 3/4",and it's not a simple job of drilling them out,lest you get off center. The saw plate is probably too hard,anyway. You can get Forrest to supply special hole sizes. I bore my own out,but you have to have the equipment.
Once you do get one of these saws,it will be found to run super smooth,much smoother than anything else I've ever tried. And,the stock fence does not move at all when you lock it. This is a 10" saw.
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Oh your dad bought them.. I didnt get that from the first post..
You didnt take the bait ..
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