The one caveat with a folded saw back...

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Hey Joel & Mike, WIA was just announced!

Don't be giving all the good stuff away for free!

Ah, John--there's few secrets in saw making. For that matter, there are few secrets regarding certain of the relationships around here either <g>...

I am pretty excited over the first of two WIA events just announced. Furniture Construction & Design. I would surely like to go as an attendee to this one. Might do it if I can free myself up enough. Probablem is, it is far enough away that I'll have to decide pretty soon as once they are taking reservations, I suspect it will sell out again pretty quick like last year.

Here's the linky to a site that only has an updated banner. There's a link to sign up for more info as it is available, though.

http://www.woodworkinginamerica.com/GeneralMenu/

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

you might think that after a few thousand saws or so I might have learned something - but I guess I'm just thick.

You folks must be making more saws than I suspected, that's a lot of saws.

I still am wondering about the tension aspect, in how a back can keep a plate properly tensioned by using tension? The clamping of the folded back ensures that the back will stay on the plate, it only applies that at the top of the plate where it is attached.

How can this "tension" folks speak of really have an effect on the plate? What type of tension would the blade have, anywhere on the plate?

Seems that if there is any tension, it's because of stress induced from the back in trying to hold the plate in a specific manor, against it's natural lay. I'm not sure how a folded back would do that any different than a slotted back, it is to keep the plate straight after all.

In a slotted back, the plate fits precisely in the slot of the back, and the rigidity of the back keeps the plate from changing. We all know that there is some degree is non-straightness of a plate, happens to all saws. This doesn't require the back be removed and/or replaced in order to true the plate up.

One aspect that has not been mentioned is the fact that the plate does in fact move in a folded back, and that in itself can cause tension to be placed on the plate that would normally not be there, if the plate and back change the relationship between each other. That happens when the plate moves to a different spot, and it is impossible to manage that tension along the fold, AFAICT. So, in some ways it seems that having the ability to remove/reposition the back to get it back into true, is the very fact that it will move to begin with, which in turn will apply tension.

I have not noticed any plates getting to a point that they can't be trued up without removing the back. Heat will allow the plate to be removed from the plate if there is really a need.

I have seen a good number of slotted saws, and have not been able to say that they have been twisted in any way, most of them seem as straight or straighter than a folder back after a given number of years. And if it was, it is possible to straighten the plate without removing the back anyway.

Bearing Bronze is about 50% stronger than Brass Alloy 360, the common brass used for slotting backs, so it is possible to have a smaller piece of material as I have noted, to provide the same capability with a smaller piece of material. There is very minimal difference, albeit noticeable between a 3/16" thick x 1/2" bronze back, and a 1/4" x 1/2" bronze back of the same length. I really don't feel that is crucial, as it is minimal.

Mike made a good point on the walnut being lighter, I forgot that you use walnut for your handles. I have come to the conclusion that walnut is easier to work with, one reason I like it. However, it is also not a strong as other woods like hard maple, and as such will be easier to knock horns off in the future. I agree that could have more impact on overall weight as Mike points out, but the noticeable weight for me is the weight in regard to the hang, or how the toe feels in relation to the saw while holding it. Some feel a heavier saw will make the cutting easier, but I have very light saws that cut fine, providing they have sharp teeth.

It's all good, folded or slotted, as long as the saw functions and does it's job, there is no reason any craftsman can't produce good work with either.

[Chris Padilla]

C'mon, People, play nice please....

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Just a quickie as I bounce out the door to look at some equipment that just came up...

It is common to call what a folded back does "keep it in tension." Properly speaking it is simply pressure against the plate. A gripping action. It could also be said that if there is tension, it is a negative thing. That is, a back has moved, thereby distorting the plate and is, because of the grip on the plate, keeping the plate in a negative tension.

But...that is being nit-picky I think. I don't mind the common usage a bit.

Take care, Mike
off to look at shears, presses, brakes, oh my...


...there's also been a few more than a few thousand saws made and shipped...

[Pat Zabrocki]

I'd have to say this is my favorite thread, ever

Lincoln and Douglas would be proud.
cheers
pat

[Zahid Naqvi]

I think I have a solution to settle this debate, Mike and Joel can each send me samples of their work and I can make a determination on what technique is better. (hey it's worth a shot)

Pat, are you a cyclist, I like the quote in your signature.

[Pat Zabrocki]

Yes, Zahid I am somewhat of a cyclist (did Ragbrai once). I haven't as much since I moved to St. Louis. Can't find any good back roads so i run a lot more and then there's the Harleys now too.
That quote from Lance is definitely my favorite. It's all about determination, perserverance, focus... I could go on.

I take it you're a cyclist too, then?

cheers
Pat

[John Powers]

The person who started the thread reminds me of me. My wife used my car, puts a dent in it, I get justifibly angry, she cries and I apologize. You buy a saw, the back comes off. Get a little bit po'd for crying out loud. It wasn't your fault. I still haven't read, gee send it back and we'll fix/replace it. Now I'm just a cobbler of a woodworker and may not understand something in the thread but Martin fixes my guitar for free and Orvis gives your some credit on waders you waded the heck out of for 5 years. Again, I must be all wet on this one.

[Alan DuBoff]

The person who started the thread reminds me of me. My wife used my car, puts a dent in it, I get justifibly angry, she cries and I apologize. You buy a saw, the back comes off. Get a little bit po'd for crying out loud. It wasn't your fault. I still haven't read, gee send it back and we'll fix/replace it. Now I'm just a cobbler of a woodworker and may not understand something in the thread but Martin fixes my guitar for free and Orvis gives your some credit on waders you waded the heck out of for 5 years. Again, I must be all wet on this one.

I don't know I was angry at all, just happened to notice it. I really see it as evidence that there are positives to a slotted back, which is how I build my saws. Mike Wenzloff also builds saws with slotted backs, he builds saws both ways. There are also positives about a folded back as well...six of one, half a dozen of the other.

I'm not sure I understand your last comment, I suspect if I was bothered by it, Mike would fix it for me, but I've fixed it already myself with a mallet.

Even more so, I'm not sure anything is wrong with the saw, and don't think Joel had enough information to claim that the saw was improperly tensioned, although there is a chance of that.

Any saws folded backs stand a chance to have the plates and backs move on them over time, IMO, old or new.

[Ray Gardiner]

Hi John,

If you are coming late to this party, some explanation is probably required.

This thread is a continuation of sorts of a discussion, (see the previous threads) that has been bouncing back and forth, for some time, on the relative merits of different methods of making saw backs. I won't attempt to restate the details of the discussion but it is sufficient to say that folded backs and slit backs perform the same basic function, the key difference is with slit backs the blade is often glued into place and with folded backs the tension in the folded brass holds the blade in place.

The back of a saw with a folded back can be moved if you whack it hard enough, it's not a defect, it's just the way it is.

We can now argue about how tightly the blade is held and how the brass is folded and what sort of alloy and how it's annealed (if it's annealed) and so on... you get the idea..


Now read on....

Regards
Ray

[John Powers]

No Ray I read them all and was just holding back in wonderment that a guy bought a saw, the back came off, (my 100 yr old Disston's is still holding tight), and he ends us kind of blaming himself. Folded, slotted, riveted or epoxied it shouldn't come off. I'm just not that mellow I guess.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

John--if there was anything wrong, I would have contacted Alan, perhaps responded here, or Alan would have contacted me via email or likely a phone call.

You need to read the thread more accurately. The back did not come off. Alan needed to whack it back in place. It wasn't loose per se. Read post #11 again.

There is not a saw with a folded back that cannot have the back budged out of place eventually. It is the nature of the beast. This issue is more apparent with brass-backed saws than steel-backed saws. This is due to the differing corrosion issues. With a brass-backed saw, the blade itself is about the only place for corrosion (i.e., rust) to occur. While this rust does provide a "grip" with the back, it is less so than with backs which also can corrode.

Your Disston most probably has a steel back. If it cannot be easily moved it is likely the rust blooms inside where the back grips the blade are holding it secure. Rust is a "wonderful" adhesive when like metals contact each other.

Take care, Mike--who has more "wonderment" about this thread than John does.

[John Powers]

Mike, I've been reading for 54 years and the difference between "came off" and "moved" still eludes me. I stand corrected on this and have learned something. It is acceptable for the back on a saw to move. Nuf said and I'm the wiser for it.

[george wilson]

I wonder why this thread keeps on going. The back moved some,which does not mean it came completely off.

From the 2 initial photos,if they are "before and after" photos,it looks like the back came up 1/16". He said he knocked the bag about a bit.

All this talk about brass Vs. bronze goes on forever. I really think it is of minor importance. Bronze is perfectly nice,brass has been used forever on the finest saws ever made. Bronze,in itself,is not going to make a saw superior to all others,if everyone is using the same 1095 steel in the blades,nor is slotted vs. folded backs.If the saw is truly traditional,folded is the way it was done. Why is there no discussion about how to properly sculpt saw handles? Mike's handles are certainly beautiful. If the back is well designed,and the steel is good,the handle is half,I should say,more than half the pleasure of owning a fine saw.

[Alan DuBoff]

No Ray I read them all and was just holding back in wonderment that a guy bought a saw, the back came off, (my 100 yr old Disston's is still holding tight), and he ends us kind of blaming himself. Folded, slotted, riveted or epoxied it shouldn't come off. I'm just not that mellow I guess.

John,

The majority of handsaws have the back moved on them, and often will be pushed down at the toe.

You might think your back has not moved, but it's possible that it has. Most saws have the back and plate shift.

As I said, I don't think anything is wrong with the saw, Mike makes great saws. These saws were some of his first ones, they don't even have a name of them.

I have another saw Mike made for me that is an odd saw, it has a 4" deep plate, but it's only 12" long. I wanted to try and short/deep plate for large tenons. It has a Harvey Peace handle on it, with the rear of the plate inset in the bottom of the handle. This is one of my all time favorite handles. IMO, Mike does some of the best handle shaping in the industry. His saws are better than most available. This was made at the same time as my 2 joinery saws he also made.

(I will cut this down to 3" depth)