How to do you make a career out of woodworking?

[Tony Bilello]

I had a custom furniture business. Turns out that the bulk of my income came from cabinet making and furniture restoration. I didn't like either. I wanted to design and build furniture. I sold pieces on a regular basis but if that is all I did , I would have gone under quickly.
People dont really care if its hand made or produced in China. They buy it because they like it. "Hand Crafted" is not really a selling point contrary to popular belief. Most people buy a particular piece because they like it or because it's cheap.
The rare few that make a good living at it are incredible artists. It's kinda like pro sports. What percentage of athletes make it big as compared to all of the wannabe's from High School on up. Maybe one in 10,000?. I dont know it's just a guess. A good amount of custom woodworkers that i know actually building furniture not cabinetry are supported primarily by their spouse's income.
People are paying for an end product and not for your time. If it takes you more than an average 8 hour day to build and finish a table you are losing money. Think what that will cost you in tools. A Stroke sander, edge sander, disk sander, drum saner and a wide belt sander. What about the 2 or 3 table saws?, the big planers, the list goes on.
Some people that piddle from time to time have no idea how long it takes them to make something. When you do it for a living, you find out quickly exactly how long. Oh yea, one more thing, when you are building, who is doing your selling for you, you know, the estimates, the sketches, etc.
Whe you are doing that whop is doing the building? All of this is going on while the rent is still due.
I better stop now, I can go on for ever.
Your are actually competing for dollars not just against other woodworkers. You are competing against a boat, a car downpayment, a ski weekend, a new TV, a gym, a golf course, etc.

[Joe Jensen]

I've watched this topic for years. From what I've read, $50 an hour is a goal that few attain. There are many who work 70-80 hours a week to net $50-100K a year. Depending on the income level you generate in your prior profession, that may look like a little, or a lot. I will say that doing it as a business requires some critical skills on top of woodworking. A few that come to mind quickly;
1) Sales - sounds like there is a lot of time spent generating business, and this time is not on the clock. If you don't sell, you don't build and you don't get paid. If you are doing kitchens, you need to bid several jobs to get one, and it takes hours of planning and figuring to get a bid done. If you are building for craft shows, you need to spend your weekends at shows selling.
2) Marketing/business/accounting - you need to have these skills or you will go out of business. If you haven't built those skills in your past experience, proceed with extreme caution.
3) Project management skills - you need to commit to schedules and be able to hold them.
4) People management - it seems pretty clear to me that unless you develop some level of celebrity with your work, you will need workers to make any real money. If you bill at $50 an hour, and you pay guys $20 an hour, you can leverage your time to make more. But, with people come management headaches, hiring headaches, OSHA, blah blah blah.

My conclusion on this idea for me. To make the income I need, I need a large operation with many workers. I think it would take several years to build the business to that level. 3 years ago I started working on a business plan to start or buy a custom millwork/high end cabinet shop. After lots of consultation I felt that building the business from scratch around a large commercial CNC was the right approach. I remember a really good article about about a guy who had a 40 person shop who was making a very good living, but he hated his role, All he did was hire, train, and fire. One day he found that he could lease a large commercial CNC and with the SW spend about the same as it cost for a laborer when the wages, taxes, workers compensation and unemployment insurance were considered. He made a decision to buy automation everytime someone quit or was fired. Of time he ended up with lots of automation and only 8 workers. When he had 40, the average guy was there only 6 months. By the time he was down to 8, it was mainly the best guys who stayed.

At that time I could lease a large 3 axis Onsrud CNC for $1800 a month, the SW as like $30-50K a year, and a CNC CAD dude was like $30K salary. It would also need 1 or 2 guys to feed the machine, assemble, etc. Those guys in Phx were like $20K a year. By the time you lease large enough space, get the tooling, get some OSHA/regulator approved finishing space, etc, it's easy to get to a burn rate of $20K a month without even paying yourself.

I would not be interested in doing it by myself. I would want to biuld a big business. Not sure that would be fun, so I haven't chased it yet.

One final thought. Seeing that big Onsrud cut out a complete arched top front entry door in 8 minutes was one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

[Derek Lyons]

Win the lottery.

When I was in the used and rare book business, we used to tell a joke:

A book seller hit the lottery. When asked what he was going to do, he replied "well, I guess I'll just keep on buying and selling books till it's all gone".

[Alex Shanku]

While everything posted (other than the flat out "your nuts") is credible but in my opinion it all depends on a multitude of factors. Far too many to just say it "is" or "isnt" possible.

How much money do you need to earn? Who will be your average customer? Retail? Wholesale? Both? Will you have to rent a space or buy? And many many more.

I think a living could easily be made in woodworking. That said some factors may make it very hard. If you have a 2k/mo mortgage and all the associated geegaws, kids heading for college, no or few tools, limited experience and knowledge, and so forth.

That said, if you were smart enough to live a pay as you go life and arent in hock up to your eyeballs, have reasonable expectations for income, a high tolerance for grief, dont have to pay an arm an a leg for shop space, flexible in your work habbits, I could go on, its absolutely possible. Will you be driving around in a brand new humV, no.

My personal feeling is we are coming into a time when people may have to recalibrate what it is to live the American dream. Whether or not they are able live on what they earn is completely dependent on many of these issues.

I have been getting a general feeling that well crafted items that will last may be on the upswing. Its just a feeling and I dont think it will cut into WM's bottom line but when your working in somewhat of a cottage industry you can make a modest living off the scraps until you get established.

Its definitely not an easy path, but going out on your own doing anything isnt easy.

Mark

I agree with this. I think you will soon ( next 2-4 years) see people decide to stay in their homes A LOT longer. I believe you will see a lot of remodel work as well as an increase in home furnishings. Houses will become long term homes to raise families and retire in, not commodities to flip and make profit, imo.

A family friend, who lives and works in Detroit, makes his living building furniture, built in shelving/benches, etc. He does work for churches, offices and residential work, as well. This man is a architect by trade, but really is a hybrid architect/furniture maker. He has done this for 40 years.

Anyway, my wife and I are under 30, have no debt (student loans and reasonable mortgage only). She makes a VERY good salary as a PA-C. I have a fully functional shop on my property.

I am thinking about working a few more years in my current field and transitioning into full time furniture / craft making.

Will it happen? Who knows. But I still have time to decide.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh.... Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

[Peter Quadarella]

As described, it depends on what the expenses are. Woodworking is a fulfilling activity, therefore there are many people doing it, driving the price down, not to mention the big factory stuff. I've met several woodworkers who make a living at their job.

It's possible, but you have to be willing to live modestly and trade cash and toys for fulfillment. The fact is, boring, annoying, and hellish jobs are ones that people would rather not do, so companies have to pay well to get workers for them.

[Michael O'Sullivan]

ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh.... Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

Not to pile on, but as several have pointed out above, just about the only way to make decent money running a WW business is to strip away all the things that make it fun in the first place.

Honestly, I would recommend that rather than starting up your own business, you go to work for a custom cabinet/furniture maker and see what it is like. You can always strike out on your own down the road, and if you pay attention, you should learn a lot about running a small business.

[Joe Jensen]

Not to pile on, but as several have pointed out above, just about the only way to make decent money running a WW business is to strip away all the things that make it fun in the first place.

Honestly, I would recommend that rather than starting up your own business, you go to work for a custom cabinet/furniture maker and see what it is like. You can always strike out on your own down the road, and if you pay attention, you should learn a lot about running a small business.

Fantastis idea. You will learn on someone else's nickel. Plus, you will net more doing that for 6 months than you will for the first 6 months on your own.

More on my comments on the business side. A very high percentage of Doctor's offices fail because doctors want to practice medicine, and the are not trained to do the business side. Same is true for small businesses. When you see successful small businesses they are invariably run by people with sound business skills. The ones that fail are often run by people who have talent and passion around their trade, but they don't have the business skills to keep the business running.

[Carlos Alden]

Dave:

It's probably very obvious but you didn't mention that one of the HUGE upsides from you doing this is the gift you are giving to the community. You are impacting the lives of those kids in countless ways. My hat is off to you for doing this. I think teachers ought to get an immediate pay raise.

Carlos

I'm one of the guys that went the teaching route. Short story is I traded a 30+ career in facilities management to teach high school shop. Downside is I took about a 40% cut in pay, and I spend six hours a day with 15 year old kids. Upside is a good amount of time off, and I get paid to improve my skills. It's a great job and I'm glad I did it. I plan to do it for the next ten to twelve years or so (assuming the economy doesn't cause the programs to be eliminated) and in the meantime I plan to use my breaks and summers to improve my furniture building skills and build a portfolio that I can use to try to get some custom work and then expand that into a retirement job. I am under no illusions as to being able to support myself by doing woodworking.

[Gary Herrmann]

ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh.... Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

Rick, I agree with Joe - Michael does have a very good idea, but if you have no experience as a pro - that could be tough in this economy as well.

One other way to look at this is - would you still love it if you did it for money 60-80 hours per week? That's the thing I wonder about the most.

[Richard Wolf]

I enjoy a good life making a living at woodworking. Those of you that know me, know that I build stairs and install railings for a living. When home building is in a boom I work in new construction for builders. When things get slow, like now, I do renovations for homeowners. In the northeast, a lot of homes got built with wrought iron rails on interior stairs, and people like to replace them with wood.
It is not the most creative woodworking all the time, but it allows me the ability to have a 1800 sq. ft. shop and most machines to equip it.
It is a skill that I taught myself by doing as much reading and research as I could find. After over 20 years, there is not much I have not done with a staircase.
It is a very small niche that few people try. Homeowners are almost never successful trying to do it themselves. I have installed railings for many finished carpenters. Some of them are better carpenters then I am.
My suggestion is to find a very small, special niche like stairbuilding and become the best you can at it.

Richard

[Ron Bott]

It is a very small niche that few people try.

I think Richard is right on here. IMHO, your success in the craft will result from one of two possibilities:

1. You find a niche, with little or no competition and exploit it.

2. You are able to design and build things others can't. In this instance, the emphasis on design, i.e. artistic, custom one of a kind furniture.

Finally, do your homework and be honest with yourself about your skills, abilities, and current life situation. Don't let anyone ever convince you that you can't do it. If the skills and desire are there, you can.

[Leo Graywacz]

I make a living at woodworking. You need to do what you need to do. It will not be fun. It will be a job. If you think it will be like your hobby life forget about it. This is real life. You need to start out small. Work cheap and get your name out there for doing quality work at a reasonable price. You need to have people skills, business skills and woodworking skills. You don't need a lot of machinery, but you do need some basic machinery and it needs to be of good quality. No Dewalt tablesaw, no Ryobi routers. You need a few pcs of industrial type equipment. Some sort of a UniSaw, a 8" jointer and a 15" planer. You need a place to do your work. A two car garage is about the minimum. You need the space to do the bigger jobs, you need the room for your machines and the stuff you build. You need to have suppliers that can work with you. You need to have a drive that most 9-5 people don't have. If you think your first 5 years are going to be 40 hours you might as well give up before you start. You will need to work for 60-100 hours a week. You will need all the skills you have and be willing to learn more. After about 5-7 years of this you should finally have a customer base built up so you can go in circles with them and add a few new clients on the way. It is not easy, it is not fun. It is work. And that is why you get paid for it. You need to figure out your overhead, your operating costs and what you want to make. You need to price your jobs out accordingly. You need to learn to say no. Don't get bullied into lowering your price. It is better to sit at home watching TV than to get a job that you will make no money on. At the beginning it is very hard to know what to charge. You will make mistakes, you will make $3.15 an hour on some projects. Yo will learn from the school of hard knocks. If you learn,you will succeed, if you don't you will perish into the night. This is a great resource here. Ask questions. Try not to ask pricing questions because we cannot possible know what your situation is. The best teacher is to screw up. You won't do that again. I have been working wood for 20 years. I have been a independent contractor for 13 years I have been in business on my own for 11 years. I have never cleared $100K. My best year so far is about $120K GROSS. I live comfortably with my wife and 3 kids in a house that I own, no more mortgage. My wife has a job. This is essential. My pay schedule is very (very) inconsistent. I get large sums of money every once and a while. The wifes consistent paycheck is nice and fills in the gaps. It would be hard to do without it. So think before you jump. Yes, it can be done. But with the economy in the state that it is in currently it is the wrong time to enter this field. But, if you are being forced to leave your position it is the best time to try, you may have little choice. Offer a service that no other does. Be there for your client. The best advertisement you can ever have is word of mouth. Good luck to you.

[Doug Miller 303]

Gents,

I will agree with all of the above comments. I only have three schools of thought to add in to the mix.

1. I know a fella that makes antique reproductions for a worldwide firm, and he does alright. He only has one or two customers, and therefore doesn't have to worry about sales and estimating....much. He makes only 10 or 15 different pieces, over and over again. Every few years the pieces change. He works out of a barn that he rents for very little money, and only has the absolutely necessary tools.

2. Extreme specialization. Do something that not many others can do. These specializations will require months to years of study time before you even consider looking at a tape measure. It might also require a few math and/or engineering classes. The first five or ten attempts at building the product will most likely fail, and you will have to pay for it. Finding somebody to buy this product may prove difficult.

3. Location, location, location. Move your shop to that part of the country that requires the least amount of heating and cooling dollars, and the cost of living is still relatively inexpensive. Your customer base can be via the internet nowadays, whilst the product can be shipped anywhere in the world. Or, have a huge showroom in a well traveled, tourist trap area. Hire the best sales men/women you can get. This may mean saying goodbye to old friends and family.

Don't let anybody discourage you from your dream, as anything is possible. It just requires a ton of dedication, blood, sweat and tears.

Good luck,

Doug

[Mark Bolton]

Nothing like a strong does of reality!

As often in life, Reality Bites.

When I see how high-volume wood products are made,

Not easy for the small timer...

There is a huge area right in the middle of the two extremes you mentioned where livings are often made. There are all sorts of semi-custom, stock, and fully custom products that are way below "fine art" and equally as far from "production and child labor". I mean take a look at Amish furniture or the multitude of other small wood items produced in small shops. Then there is always piecework or contract work for small components. How about grade stakes, on and on. They may not be the things that "move" you, but as another post said, they keep you in the work to be ready when the juicy stuff comes along.

This is what I meant when I mentioned being flexible in your work habits. If one insists on only doing fine woodworking, or customs, they may be a bit more limited than someone who has a small semi-stock production line, coupled with some piece work, coupled with some....

Of course if you have the demand for doing only what you love then youve got it licked.

A lot of it is as with anything, marketing and promoting your work. Unfortunately that usually takes more of your time than working in the shop. We had a full time pottery studio for a while. I remember a saying that many professional potters would always say, twenty percent of a potters time is spent at the wheel. The rest of the time you are promoting your work, printing brochures, pitching to galleries, boxing work, cleaning the studio, etc..

Mark