How to do you make a career out of woodworking?

[Mark Bolton]

ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh.... Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

That last part is the key. While its difficult to get them down once they are up, if they are down or reasonable, your opportunities broaden exponentially.

Again, I keep reading about all these extremes, 20k/month in expenses for a massive production shop and so on. Those things are perfectly fine, we have many friends who have no desire to live in a modest home, drive a modest vehicle, and live an average life. They own their own companies and want "The Donald" life. New vehicles, harley's, boats, trips, sit in the office on the phone, on and on. But as many of them flame out they realize that they wish they had stuck with a smaller operation where they were more a part of the process.

Its easy to get carried away especially when ego and testosterone are stirred in the same pot.

Mark

[Rick Fisher]

I was going to say that the way to end up with a million dollars in woodworking is to start with 2 million. Then it occured to me.

I have a doorshop that makes money. Not loads but it pays 1,2,3,4,5,6,7...

7 salaries and makes about 4% - 5% on the bottom line each year.

My main competitor is a owner / hanger shop. He sells and hangs each door. He has a showroom that cost him about $10K and does good work.

I happen to know that he hasnt made less than 6 figures a year in many many moons.

A typical interior door (up here) pre-hung in a 4 1/2" jamb sells for about $89.00 Cdn.

The components cost about $56.00 and the labor is about $12.00

Our shop puts one out in about 7 minutes. His shop probably takes 12 minutes.

The difference is that he actually hangs the door... do the math.

His wife does the books, they share the sales job and he runs the shop. I think he has an after school kid who cleans up each day.. not sure.

He probably takes 15% home after expenses on each order and does $1.2 millon - $1.5 million a year.

The example I gave is of a typical interior slab door. An exterior door could take a couple hours to build but he would make $250 - $400 on the door (before expenses).

[John Ricci]

You have to have your "backup" income in most cases to make it work. Doug made some very good points about location and limited product line. I have my ww business out in the barn in a tourist/cottage/ski area and I mainly make red cedar deck furniture, custom kitchen boxes and simple toys. The cottagers buy my chairs and kitchen bits and all of the older folks will spend money on toys for the grandkids long before they spend it on themselves...a throwback to a simpler time and something the kids will hopefully hang onto for their families later. The backup for this is the clincher...we own/operate an antique and vintage housewares store which provides the venue for exposure of our products. I do the woodwork and my wife is a custom sewer who is constantly busy with projects for folks who own $1mil+ "vacation homes" and they don't mind spending money on high quality goods available and made locally. Right now it seems a lot of folks are looking to "the good old days" when making their purchases. In the right customer demographic Made In China just doesn't cut it. It may seem nuts but as the economic situation has worsened, our sales have increased nicely

J.R.

[Mark Singer]

There is a lot of great advice already, I often count my hours and think how little I would make! And I am quite fast at woodworking. Only when it becomes art do you have a chance and even that is difficult

[Dave Cav]

Dave:

It's probably very obvious but you didn't mention that one of the HUGE upsides from you doing this is the gift you are giving to the community. You are impacting the lives of those kids in countless ways. My hat is off to you for doing this. I think teachers ought to get an immediate pay raise.

Carlos

Thanks; I suppose I'm keeping a few of them off the streets and out of jail. I'd be happy just to have 90% of my students be able to read a tape measure to 1/16" by the end of the year. Maybe next year...

[Per Swenson]

Jeeze, I kept writing a reply to this thread, then I would delete it.

No matter how I phrased it, it just came out both pompous and harsh.

Though Mr Singer finally added a key ingredient, the artist pricing,
he did leave out a very important part. The road to becoming a reputational artist. A niche, a name and a following.

You must be prepared in the beginning to learn to lose everything and smile.
Adversity and rejection have to not only be expected, but used as tools to be both a better businessman, woodworker and human being.
In other words you not only have to have character, you need to be one.

I believe everybody has these traits, they just are unaware of them.
Job security will do that to you.

But here is the deal, you will never know unless you try...more then once.
And if you don't, in the back of your mind will echo those immortal words
of Terry Malloy, " I coulda been a contenda".

Per

[Larry Edgerton]

Nothing like a strong does of reality!

As often in life, Reality Bites.

When I see how high-volume wood products are made, I can fully understand why they sell so cheap....virtually no labor involved...these machines see and remove defects in the wood, dimension it, sand it, finish it, etc. etc. In the end, you often have a bunch of parts that can be assembled / glued in jigs very quickly... considering machines run 24/7 with no health care or sick time, the cost to make a product is so low vs. a person doing all this the ol fashion way....

or....you have the other end of the market... where more fine art intricate ww products, like jewelry boxes are made by child laborers making pennies.... sure the quality can be better, but its mind boggling this stuff can retail for $30 - $70 on avg. Welcome to the free world...

IMO, these two issues really changed the mindset of "value" of many ww products. Hence why custom made products, such as built-ins, crown molding, etc. will always escape the two issues above, and be done the ol fashion way... So if was to ever consider making a living, that would be the only aveneue, and even then, competition would be high and its hard breaking in any new busienss. Cabinets fall into the 50/50 range, since the BORG's have adapted mass produced ready to install boxes... But anymore, to seel cabinets, it often pays to have a nice showroom like the Borgs where the customer can see everything, touch it, view computer images of slight changes, etc. etc. Not easy for the small timer...

This is the best summary I have seen covering what we are up against.

I make the biggest share of my money doing stuff that machines can not do under any circumstances, trimming upscale houses. All other avenues I have tried such as cabinets, furniture, and small high end trinkets such as jewelery boxes are are corrupted by either mass production or sadly, unfair labor practices. What is left is very little. I looked at investing in more machinery to build more boxes, but it is not woodwork, so I may as well have gotten a job at Ford.

I would not choose this profession again, I would have made it my hobby.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Don't make furniture to earn a living.

Run a furniture business to earn a living.

Gallery.... Spend a year prototyping and marketing your goods part time, then decide. You'll soon discover that you'll be in the shop only about 30% of the time in the beginning years.

[Larry Edgerton]

This is what I meant when I mentioned being flexible in your work habits. If one insists on only doing fine woodworking, or customs, they may be a bit more limited than someone who has a small semi-stock production line, coupled with some piece work, coupled with some....

Mark

Very good point Mark.

If I was not all over the place all of the time I would not have my shop. I am not in an area with enough population that I can be specialized, so I take what comes. I have actually painted houses when things got tight, I am a licensed builder, a journeyman plumber athough I don' use it, I have plowed snow before in years that were slack, I subcontract trim from other builders who can't do what I do, I have even done roofing when payments need to be met. I repaired power line trucks during Katrina cleanup and I could go on but you get the idea.

The jobs that I live for, art made with wood if you will, usually do not make me enough or any money for the time involved that I can call it work, because you should make a profit from work. They are rather an appeasement of the soul that I need ocasionally to make me keep going in all of the jobs that I do not really like, you know, the bread and butter.

I am getting to the point where I have all the tools, and my shop is paid off, my house is close, but now I am physically worn out. I have a plan to have zero payments soon, and I am so looking forward to that. i may finally be able to afford to work for less/Hr. and do more of the work I am passionate about.

As has been stressed, low overhead is the key. It takes less money to purchase something after you have made and saved the money, and if you can not do that you are either not making enough, or you were never meant to be in the woodworking business. There is a price to pay.

[Jim Kountz]

My suggestion is to find a very small, special niche like stairbuilding and become the best you can at it.

Richard

Ahh now we're getting somewhere. All this talk about you cant do this and you cant do that and you need 20k a month. Hogwash. What you need is to do one thing, and do it well. Dont just "take on woodworking for cash". Thats crazy. Have a plan and stick to it. Find a need an fill it. They're out there, one just needs to look for them. Look around your everyday lives and you will start to see many opportunities. Building one offs and custom items is a very hard row to hoe, I wouldnt even begin to think I could make a living doing that right now but specialized woodworking, things harry homeowner cant do, theres your huckleberry.

[Paul B. Cresti]

So I have come to a cross roads in my life and I feel I am being shown the door (to leave) in my current path. One hobby that I've always loved was woodworking, but I am curious how one takes it to the next level and makes a living at it? Do you open a shop and sell fine furniture in a retail setting? Are you doing special order work for folks in a private setting..i.e. carpentry work? Do you make the most from teaching classes? I am just curious how the folks that do this for a living, actually make enough money from it to pay the bills? What are you doing and what have you found to be the most lucrative niche?

First question is define career? Second question is what kind of standard of living do you want to achieve? Third question is assunming you are married does you wife have a job and heath care coverage?

Then from there start to talk about product, supply and demand, etc....Remember this is a business and it should be run accordingly...I have been there and done that it is not for the faint of heart or means

[jud dinsmore]

lots of good advise already posted but i thought i would share my limited experience.

started about 10 months ago and would have long since been out of business if not for my wife's income. i have a plan and a niche market but so do others and it is a lot harder to break into that i initially thought. i've supplemented my work with kitchen installs and some general handyman work but i'm still in the hole big-time.

"business" related tasks (sales, marketing, accounting, etc.) take up significant time (one man shop) and without the equipment running i'm really not getting paid. my overhead is pretty low ($2k for 1500 sf, all insurances, licenses, utilities, and legitimate business expenses).

i started with considerable savings, tools, and some good working relationships (established as i was a home builder) but so far it has provided me with a lot of opportunities to bid work but not enough jobs to make ends meet. this is partly due to weak consumer confidence ("i'm going to wait on my project until the economy improves").

breaking into my niche market is going poorly. i anticipated being slow for the first couple of years and, while things are building slower than i planned, i'm not too surprised. i started my business more based on a preceived need for demand rather than my love for the craft. i think the continued worsening of the economy has affected my business somewhat but the fact of life is i'm still the new kid on the block and work will lead to more work. it is just a matter of waiting it out while i build a customer base.

there seem to be a lot of these threads about starting a woodworking business. all of the advise given is worthwhile and should be considered. your individual situation will dictate what you should do. i think the realities of starting most new ventures are working a ton for little money. business isn't a sprint - its a marathon. good luck.

[Paul Johnstone]

ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh.... Fricken sick of doing $%#@ work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses??

I knew a guy that had a dream to open his own petstore, because that was his hobby (breeding and raising reptiles). He eventually leveraged himself enough to do it, but shut down after 3 years, because he said it was worse than his previous job. The point is, once you turn a hobby into a business, it's not likely to be fun anymore.

I think about that on my woodworking. I will make a goof, but I will remember that this piece is just for me so I can fudge it.. Then I think, "If this was for a customer, I'd have to redo the whole thing, what a PITA that would be".

I just can't imagine dealing with customers and doing custom work for them. I imagine some of them are going to be extremely picky and impossible to please. Then you have to deal with the deadbeats that don't want to pay or try to re-negotiate the price after the work is done, etc.

I really don't like my career either, but it's better than runnning my own business BTW, a survey said that 85% of Americans wish they had another career, so you are in good company.

[Don Bullock]

I have a friend that is a fantastic sculpture of bronze western art. His work is throughly researched, authentic to the craft and precise in every detail. Walt's love of his craft is unending along with his knowledge of the history of the Old West in the United States. He's a true artist, but instead on making a living at his art he sells cardboard boxes to businesses and hates his job. What's the missing link you ask? ---Recognition as an artist by people who buy art. People will pay far more for a "fake," poorly rendered Remmington than they will for one of his pieces purely because they have heard the name.

Three people I was hoping to see answers from have chimed in on this topic:

...
My suggestion is to find a very small, special niche like stairbuilding and become the best you can at it.

Richard

After seeing pictures of Richard's work I can see why he's been successful. He has become a master at his chosen craft. His advice is sound, but it has taken him quite a while to become established in that position. His staircases that I've seen pictured here are true pieces of art.

There is a lot of great advice already, I often count my hours and think how little I would make! And I am quite fast at woodworking. Only when it becomes art do you have a chance and even that is difficult

Mark is one who has taken woodworking to the level of being true art. As an architect he has been able to incorporate furniture into his building designs. Creating beautiful objects (true art) is difficult because the concept of what is "art" is different for everyone. To be successful one has to be able to create art based on a customer's perception of art. While I'm not one who likes the modernistic designs Mark creates, I greatly appreciate the artistic talent shown in all his work that he shows here. That talent has served him well.

Jeeze, I kept writing a reply to this thread, then I would delete it.

No matter how I phrased it, it just came out both pompous and harsh.

Though Mr Singer finally added a key ingredient, the artist pricing,
he did leave out a very important part. The road to becoming a reputational artist. A niche, a name and a following.

You must be prepared in the beginning to learn to lose everything and smile.
Adversity and rejection have to not only be expected, but used as tools to be both a better businessman, woodworker and human being.
In other words you not only have to have character, you need to be one.

I believe everybody has these traits, they just are unaware of them.
Job security will do that to you.

But here is the deal, you will never know unless you try...more then once.
And if you don't, in the back of your mind will echo those immortal words
of Terry Malloy, " I coulda been a contenda".

Per

Per has summed up this topic very well. If you do a search of his work you'll see that he has the background to be as he said, "both pompous and harsh." Again Per points out the need to be an artist at the craft, not just a carpenter. Per's carpentry is definitely artistic.

In addition to what has been said on this subject I'd like to add the following. To be successful in any craft one has to be either fast and good or an exceptional artist. Fast and good workers in almost any business can be successful. They are the ones often hired by others to do the "grunt work" in a project. Those who are recognized as "true artists" by those who want their "art" seem to be the ones that are the most successful. While Per is correct in saying that all of us possess these traits, Even if we display those artistic traits in our work, becoming recognized by the paying public seems to me to be the key factor to success. That, Rick, is the difficult part.

[David Keller NC]

"ugh...life sucks. Why is it everything that is cool, and was something someone could have at one time made a living doing...is no longer? The only jobs that one can make a living at are super boring...ugh.... Sick of doing yuck work to pay the bills.....why can't I find something I love to do that will cover expenses?? "

You don't say how old you are. If you are quite young (less than 35), you've a number of ways to go. There are many professions that are relatively immune to outsourcing or factory competition that you can get training to do, and that companies will hire you for.

As someone that has an advanced degree in the sciences but is old enough to no longer be eligible for corporate employment (45, in my case) I can tell you that you should not complain about boredom. There's a lot worse - like being unable to pay for a mortgage and living on the street.

And by the way - everyone's sick of doing work to pay the bills. There's a support group for that, and they meet at the local bar.