Replacement iron of old coffin wood smoother

[Berl Mendenhall]

I bought a nice old wood smoother at a antique mall a couple of weeks ago. Plane was hardly used at all, very nice shape. Here's the reason. The iron is so hard the edge chips off. Sharpen it, and a couple of passes over even soft wood, and I start getting tracks where the edge has tiny chips in it. The more I plane the worse the chips get. After resharpening it I checked it with a magnifing glass and it has really tiny chips right off the 8000 grit stone. I haven't tried a secondary bevel, but I can't see it helping much the way this thing crumbles.

The plane is a #3 with a laminated blade. I was really happy to get it because of its shape. Now I see why it was hardly used. I only payed $10.00 for it so I still have a like new plane I just have to replace the iron.

My question is, do any of the iron replacement people make irons for these type of planes. Old cast-steel lamented blades are tapered. I could contact antique tool dealers and get an old iron, but I thought I'd try a Hock or LN or something like that, if I could. I intend on using this plane, so I don't care if it's original or not. I have several old wood planes and this is the first time I've came across this problem. The irons are usually fine. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks.

Berl

[Robert Rozaieski]

You could try contacting Clark & Williams and seeing if they will make you one. This is probably what I would do if it is a single iron plane. Even if it's a double iron plane I'd give them a call anyway. They may be able to make you one, though it likely won't be inexpensive since it's a special order type of thing. Another option if you want a contemporary laminated iron is Galoot Tools, though I don't think his blades are tapered. Other than that, Ron Hock might have a couple left but I thought I read that they don't make replacement irons for woodies anymore.

[Berl Mendenhall]

Thanks Bob. My only real option here may be from an antique tool dealer. Like you, I love using these old woodies (as you called them). I like that name.

Berl

[John Powers]

Those things are all over ebay. I bought one to make Bob Smalsers Spar plane, liked the thing so much I couldn't butcher it so I bought another identical one for the spar plane. Both had good sound irons. Check Ebay under Wooden Plane. That one from Baldwin might have your iron. They seem to crack on the sides I guess due to setting the wedge too hard over the years but there are some nice ones to be had. They feel great in your hand. Check Ebay first.

[Bob Haverstock]

You might do some research into the blade material. My guess is that it is a high carbon steel. If it is indeed too hard, you may be able to redraw the temper. A toaster oven comes to mind. What do you have to lose? Do you have a knife maker in your area?

Bob

[Terry Beadle]

From your description, I think you have a tempering issue. You can use your home oven to retemper the blade. The comment about a knife maker is spot on too. Some knife makers do the tempering of the blade several times.

You put the blade in the oven at 300 to 400 degrees for about an hour. Take it out and plunge it into water. Repeat 2 ~ 3 times. If that doesn't work then take the blade to a knife maker and have him/her take the blade to the proper red color and anneal the metal. The have them do the tempering a couple times. Resharpen the blade and give it a go. If it doesn't work then I'd be surprised. But if so, just buy another $10 plane off the bay and have at it.

Let us know how it turns out.

Best of luck....

[David Keller NC]

Berl - What you've noticed is what most of us that like wooden planes go through - getting a wooden plane that wasn't used to death and that is also usable is extraordinarily rare. Most of the woodies that are in good shape have an irrevocably stuck iron, a stock with wild grain that wants to warp/twist with changes in humidity, or has an iron with either too soft a temper or too hard of a temper (your issue).

Your first attempt whould be to re-temper the iron - Do what Terry suggests, though I would caution that you probably want to test the iron between each heating and quenching. It's fairly easy to draw the temper so much that it's now too soft. If that does occur (the edge now folds over instead of chipping), grind it back a bit before giving up - it's not uncommon to have the very thin tip of the cutting edge to have softened up too much, but the rest of the iron is just right.

As to a tapered replacement blade, an antique dealer is your best bet, but you can get a new tapered blade from D.L. Barret and Sons. Not exactly inexpensive, but they're the only ones that I know of that directly advertise tapered, uncut new blades.

From the standpoint of replacing the blade with either another tapered one from an antique or an untapered one from L-N or L-V, I'll note that this typically requires that you make another wedge. It's not rocket science, but it's not trivial either. Working on your existing iron to get the temper right is very much easier.

[Zach Dillinger]

You could also check with DL Barrett and Sons. Their website shows tapered, single irons for sale.

dlbarrettandsons.com/TaperedIrons.html

I've yet to purchase anything from them, but I must say that I am very impressed with their work.

Zach

[Berl Mendenhall]

Thanks for the replies. I hadn't thought of tempering it in the oven. I've never done any metal work but what the heck, I'll try it. Your right, what have I got to lose. Once I get the iron issue straightened out,(either fixed or replaced) it'll make a good plane.

As David said it's hard to find old woodies in really good shape. I've got a modest collection of planes. I don't buy em unless "I think" they're usable. I take them apart and inspect them for cracks and look the iron over to make sure it has plenty of steel left. I have bought off ebay but it always makes me nervous. I want to be able to pick up the tool and look it over. Ebay is too easy a place to unload stuff with major problems. It only takes one dud and you haven't saved a thing. Might as well buy off a dealer.

A few years ago John Walter had his antique tool shop close to where I live (Southeastern Ohio). Man was that place great. Hundreds and hundreds of old tools to look at. The worst thing was deciding what to buy, so much to choose from. He moved a few years ago, hated to see him go.


Berl

[Jim Koepke]

This is likely not the issue, but I can not help but wonder if the blade got flipped in the making.

Not sure if you would get the chips if the lamination was on the wrong side of the blade.

jim

[Michael Faurot]

On a related note to adjusting the temper on a blade. I've recently become interested in doing some similar things with the idea of making my own plane blades and other metal tools for woodworking.

The first thing I found to be helpful is Tod Herli's video Classic Planemaking Volume 1: Hollows and Rounds. While the topic of the video is mostly about making molding planes, it also covers working 01 tool steel for making the blades for these types of planes as well as how to make your own floats. Tod shows how to anneal the metal, quench and also how to temper.

I also recently came across the book Country Tools and How to Use Them, which has an appendix dedicated to "Hardening, Tempering and Annealing".

As someone that really doesn't like working with metal, the techniques presented in both of these works has made it pretty easy for me. While I'm not going to get the results that someone with a lot more experience in metallurgy would get. The results have been good enough so far.

[george wilson]

DO NOT temper the blade in the oven. The thin cutting edge will get hot first,and could get too hot. Polish up the steel bit in the blade till the metal is clean and bright-not actually polished-just bright. Take a propane torch,and hold the iron with tongs,or Channel Locks by its top,opposite of the cutting end. Carefully play the torch across the mid section of the iron,and be very patient. Don't let the torch dwell and make a hot spot!!

Watch for colors to begin to develop on the bright section of the blade where the bit is. Keep brushing the torch back and forth. You will see a yellow color start to appear all across the bit. If the color develops quicker on one area,avoid heating that area.Let the other areas catch up.You MUST do this evenly,and it isn't real easy to do when you are learning. A light brown color will develop next,then a darker brown. Dark brown is what you want.

Read this carefully: It would be best if you did NOT have to quench the blade,and could just leave it alone and let it cool. Quenching can warp the iron across its width,because it has a bevel on 1 side,therefore more surface area.

If the brown keeps developing,and starts turning purple,you will be forced to quench.IN THIS INSTANCE ONLY,I advise you to quench in HOT water,to shock the steel less,and try to keep warping down. Normally,you would use cool water when hardening steel,but this is drawing temper,which is totally different. Steel won't harden fully if quenched in HOT water,remember that.

An easier,more controllable way to draw the iron could be to lay it across an electric burner on the cooking stove,and let the cutting end of the iron hang out over the side of the burner a couple of inches. You could weight the other end with a block of steel,or something that won't melt,or pop open (the way a rock might). Turn the burner on a very low heat,and watch for the colors to develop. I've had to do this very thing even with Hercules jeweler's saw blades,when a batch turned out to break like glass. Just laid them on a plate of steel,and carefully brought them to brown. They were fine after that.

When the colors reach light brown,take the blade off the burner,and see if they develop to a darker brown. Put back if necessary.

I have had to draw the temper from more than a few old,best quality tools. I have a 19th.C. set of ADDIS carving tools that were so hard they would not hold an edge. A little drawing of temper,and all was just fine. I had other craftsmen bring me similar problem antique tools. Quality control wasn't what we might imagine it should have been,even in the golden age of hand tools. People were still people,got tired,etc.,and had lapses just as we do.

[Jim Koepke]

Quality control wasn't what we might imagine it should have been,even in the golden age of hand tools. People were still people,got tired,etc.,and had lapses just as we do.

And thus the bumper sticker... $#!+ Happens!

jim

[Berl Mendenhall]

Thank you again for the great replies. I have learned a lot and will think this over before I do anything. Being a wood worker, metal working is a little intimidating. What I know about metal wouldn't make a very big paragraph, let alone a book.

A little side note. George continues to give me valuable advice. Twenty five years ago he gave me advice and a recipe for making violin varnish. I have two or three jars of George's varnish in my shop right now. I've made it several times over the years.

Berl

[Adam Cherubini]

DO NOT temper the blade in the oven. The thin cutting edge will get hot first,and could get too hot.

How does it get hotter than the oven again George? I think you are talking about some sort of heat transfer. The heat will build in the thin sections and race toward that fat cooler sections, but this shouldn't cause a local problem.

I think something like this CAN happen at the grinder, where you heat up the middle of the blade (while grinding) and the high HT rate at the edges can draw that heat and cause over heat conditions.

I do all my tempering in my electric oven. Set your oven to 400F. Put the blade on Al foil. After the oven comes up to temperature, let it soak for 30 minutes then turn the oven off. You can remove the tool from the oven and place it on a cooling rack or just come back later and get it.

I don't think quenching after tempering helps anything and I wouldnt' do it. If you over heat during tempering, the tool must be re-hardened. You can't quench at purple (900F?) and start over. That's not how it works. You must go back to 1350+, then quench, then try tempering again.

I think George has said before that cooking ovens can vary in temperature and vary over time. If you have a digital thermometer, that can be helpful. But like thermometers in glue pots, I think it's too much information. It's just one more thing to worry about. Your plane is not going to crash and kill all aboard if this temper isn't exactly right, so don't worry too much about it! You'll gain or lose a few Rc points between 375 and 425.

All said, I don't believe the OP when he says the edge is too hard. The bevel angle may be too low or the iron may not be clean enough. Lots of folks with edge retention problems (sounds like a late night TV commercial "Do you have edge retention problems?") are quick to ascribe some reason for the problem; too hard, too soft, too much carbon, grain size etc etc. In reality, it can be very difficult to know what the problem is. I think I can tell hardness or softness of a blade during sharpening. I'm not sure I can tell in use and you sure can't tell by looking at the edge in a microscope.

If you have an edge retention problem, I think the first thing you should do is measure the bevel angle. If it's less than 25, go ahead and raise it up. If not, then rehone to a fine polish. Strop the edge smooth and try again. If you still have a problem, try a different board or a different technique (if it's a chisel). Next, grind a little edge away and retry. This is especially helpful on new chisels. If you still have a problem, that's when you want to start trying different bevel angles. Changing temper should be the last resort.

Adam