Hand Cut Dovetails, tips?

[Chris Thompson]

OK, so one of my goals is to learn to hand cut dovetails. To that end I went to Lowes and bought a set of Marples Blue Chip chisels and a $14 Stanley "Reversible Dovetail Saw", and a $10 fret saw with a few grades of blades.

I attempted to cut a tail into the end of a piece of poplar I had lying around. The Stanley saw wouldn't even do much more than put a dent in the end of the poplar. I decided to rough it out with the fret saw and clean it up with a 1/4" chisel.

I guess for a first attempt, it wasn't too bad. I only cut out one "slot", and it was a bit uneven.

So I'm now looking for tips on cutting dovetails.

First, it's obvious that my saw just isn't up to snuff. While I'd love a Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw, I don't have that kind of cash. What should I be looking for, perhaps on ebay, that I can refurbish similar to what I'm about to do with my Stanley planes?

Should I be looking at Japanese saws? I think I'd prefer an open tote like the Lie-Nielsen over a straight handle like a Dozuki (And my crappy Stanley)

Any and all tips welcome.

[Tim Sproul]

Those Marples will work fine in poplar. Don't think about pounding or even paring harder woods with them. The edges will crumble like the chisels are sandstone...at least that is my experience with them.

For saws, I can't help you much. I'm completely hooked on Japanese saws. I do know some who have gotten old Disston's and others and fettled them into good working shape. Some stores will let you try their tools...especially saws....in the store so you can know what you're buying. If you've a Woodcraft nearby, you could just get one of each saw you'd like to try...take 'em home and try 'em and then return all the others after finding the one you like. Assuming they won't just let you try the saws out in the store.

Practice would be the biggest tip....let the saw do the work. You are only guiding the saw.....the teeth will cut the wood without your help. And if one method doesn't seem to work well for you.....be imaginative and try it a different way. It's only the end result...the fit and look of the dovetails that matters. If you have to use some asanine back-assed way to get there...so be it

[Marc Hills]

Chris,

Far be it from me to claim any real proficiency in dovetailing, but I have done my share in the past year, and I immensely enjoy the process.

I won't suggest any particular technique, but five will get you ten that your big box Stanley "dovetail" saw is filed (ahem, stamped) with a cross cut profile. Exactly wrong for dovetailing; cutting both pins and tails are rip cuts.

I use a lovely refurbished Disston backsaw that I filed with to a rip tooth pattern and it's something like four or five strokes to cut each side of the tails. Very quick and precise.

I suggest you return the Stanley and either order a true dovetail (western or Japanese) saw from a good woodworking mailorder company (Lee Valley, Woodcraft, Highland Hardware) or be a true uber galoot and rehab an old saw.

And Tim is quite right: practice, practice, practice.

[Chris Thompson]

I forgot to mention that I have no illusions at all that the Stanley saw is a piece of, uh, junk. I've got the receipt, and it's DEFINITELY going back to Lowes

As for my marples chisels, they were cheap. A set of four for $19.95. At least in the short term, they'll be used for poplar and pine. I've got my eye on a set of Two Cherries or similar chisels.

I once read a story in, I think, Fine Woodworking from a guy who said every day when he walked into his shop he would grab two pieces of scrap wood and quickly dovetail them together as an exercise. He likened it to stretching for an athlete. I like that idea.

[Richard Gillespie]

Chris, I use Marples chisels, almost exclusively, for hand cut dovetails. I don't understand others position that the edges crumble. I use scary sharp method and will admit that I stop and frequently strop them. I've used them in Pine, Ash, Red Oak, and Maple. Most of the stock I use is 7/8" to 1-1/8" thick. I have two sets plus and am quite happy with them. I'm afraid to buy a really good set and see what I've been missing.

For saws, I have two. One is a Japanese pull saw with a steel back and replaceable blade, sold by Woodcraft for about $30.00. The other is a much more expensive Adria rip saw I was given as a present by my wife for Christmas. Both are great for ripping pins and tails. There are a few other saws I bought from Lowe's and Home Depot labeled dovetail saws that were pure junk, don't bother. The secret to hand cut dovetails is a straight cut. I hope to learn that some day.

I got turned on to hand cutting dovetails by a Frank Klaus video. So much so, that my Leigh D-4 usually collects dust.

[scott pollack]

chris , im with richard. i use marples blue chips as well as the scary sharp method. keep em sharp and you wont have any problems. to me , they are fine chisels. thats doesnt mean im right or wrong, just that thats what works for me.

practice , practice , practice! but not on pine. i find its hard to get a crisp edge on it. the fibers are too soft. to start off with, i wouldnt even start to cut a joint first. get used to the saw and the angles. take a scrap of oak and draw several 1:6 , 1:7 and 1:8 lines and just practice cutting to the baseline by splitting the line you have drawn. after you get used to that , cut the end off and draw the angles angled in the opposite direction. then combine the cuts and start a tail.

id be glad to walk you through the process. please feel free to email me.

scoot

[Mark Singer]

Chris,
I used Marples Chisels for years for dovetails and they are fine. It is actually much easier to cut them using a harder wood like Maple. The current issue on Fine Woodworking has tips which seem helpful on handcutting dovetails. The secret to all joinery is to scribe an accurate line and cut on the "Waste" side. In other words the thickness of the blade is on the "waste" side. A douzuki is a great saw to usewith about 20 tpi. A Zona razor saw is also good. The blade should not have a set. The videos and books explain it well. Tage Frid chooses to cut the pins first ...many others choose the tails. Just try through dovetails first. Half blind are a bit more difficult. I think cutting the tails first is more forgiving. You will need a good marking gauge and a marking knife. I am glad to see you are attempting hand cut dovetails...as you see your progress your confidence will increase and you will be able to execute other difficult joinery. Make sure you scribe both the edge and face of each cut to insure the saw is held at the correct angle. If they are tight...pair them with a chisel or knife ...the shiney spots are the tight ones. The gauge should be set to to the side thickness plus 1/32. when you chop, undercut slightly so the face is what touches. These and many other tricks come with practice. It is a rewarding endevour that really is the spirit of woodworking and a long history.
Here is a great book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

[Scott Quesnelle]

I would suggest you hit your local library. A large number have good woodworking videos.

2 on dovetailing I would recommend are:

Frank Klaus'
Dovetailing a Drawer.

Ian Kirby's Dovetail video but can't remember the name.

Rob Cosman also has a good video out. Available at www.robcosman.com

As for saws, you are in a good chunk of the country for flea markets. Hit them, even better if you can do it on a weekday early in the morning.. Or sign up for the oldtool list and was for the FS posts on Flea Market Mondays.

As for the dovetails. I would just get your bevel gauge out and just mark a bunch of parallel angled lines \\\\\\ on a 1x6 about 12 of them. Put a shoulder down 3/4" Connect the lines to the shoulder. And cut to the line.
Cut 1" off the end of the board, Now repeat on the opposite angle //////. When you can follow those. Do the angles on the face of the board and straight across the end.

I would also suggest you check out Jeff Gorman's site:

http://www.amgron.clara.net/

And when you do get a dovetail that goes together. Date it and put it aside. Then cut one again in a few days and compare them.. I still have my first ugly ugly dovetail joint.

[Roy Wall]

As a newbie to dovetail work, I wonder how well the Veritas system works:


http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...currency=3&SID=

Any thoughts...........(good way to learn, then on to "real" hand cut dovetails?)

[Dave Anderson NH]

I don't have much to add about technique, but I'll offer a suggestion on dealing with crumbling edges on Marples Blue Chip chisels. I have a set and still use them for many things. If you take and increase the cutting angle from the standard 25 degrees to either 27 1/2 or 30 it will greatly strengthen the cutting edge. Rather than going to the effort of regrinding the full bevel, just increase it for about the first 1/16 to 1/8 inch. Essentially you are just adding a steeper microbevel of unusually large size.

On dovetail saws, find something reasonably cheap to start if you are on a budget and rework it yourself. Dovetail saws are rip cut so resharpening the teeth is easy for a beginner. Any excess set can be removed by laying the saw flat and taking a few strokes (same number both sides) on each blade face with a fine stone or a block of around 220 grit SiC paper wrapped around a block of wood, hard rubber, or cork. If your budget allows, Adria Saws and Spehar Toolworks both offer very fine dovetails saws of quality equal to or better than the Lie-Neilsens and both are less money.

[Gary Whitt]

Chris, try this info:

http://www.amgron.clara.net/dovetails/dovetailindex.htm

I'm using it as a guide while I learn.

So far, I've cut both hands and two fingers with chisels and Japanese saws practicing dovetails.
My hand tools are sharp!!!
I haven't been bitten like that with power tools!!!

[David Wilson]

Chris;
Don' know if it is still available but I have a VCR tape with a segment by Frank Klaus on hand cutting dovetails. Will try to find it this weekend and get you more specifics.

[Chris Thompson]

Guys,

Thanks for all the tips. The Stanley "dovetail saw" went back to lowes today, and a trip to Woodcraft and Rockler are on tap for tomorrow morning for a dozuki.

I've also got my eye on two older saws on ebay that look promising.

Dave, I'd heard of Adria, but never heard of Spehar. The primitive part of my brain went into overdrive when I read that site. An incredibly well made dovetail saw with a tote custom fit to your hand size, and it's only $90? It's a shame my birthday was in April. I'll have to find some excuse to buy myself a present.

[Steve Kubien]

Chris, I have one of Vlad Spehar's dovetail saws and love it! (May be because I only paid $80Cdn for it since it was of earlier products whilst he was working on handle designs). It's comfortable and cuts as straight as you could wish.

Take care,
Steve K
Ajax, Ontario

[Alan Turner]

Chris,
A good quality, and inexpensibve, Jap. saw is available from:
http://www.tashirohardware.com/index.html
Mark Singer told me of this company, and it is an excellent source.
Alan