Lie-Nielsen pricey pretty stuff.....

[James Mittlefehldt]

I would respectfully suggest that not all the tools made back in the day were great. I am pretty sure there was cheap junk then to, but the cheap junk did not last a couple of centuries.

Case in point in the Tool Chest Of Benjamin Seaton it was mentioned that the hollow and round sets were made from second rate beech as some had knots in them. This set survivied because it wasn't used much and stayed in the family until a museum got their hands on it.

Also a question that is a bit off topic, back in the day that is say 1950's or so who made craftsmen chisels, I just saw a set of three at an antique mall yesterday really heavy with a lot of possibly nickel in the mix as they were a bit shiny, and they were socket chisels that looked a lot like Stanley 750's?

[Tony Zaffuto]

In a box lot at an auction I got a socket chisel, marked Fulton, which I believe was a Craftsman brand way back in the day. The chisel somewhat resembles a 750 and is plated. If you think some modern chisels are tough to flatten the back, you ought to try flattening one that has plating on it!

I gave up on it and it sits in a box that one day will be a "box lot"!

T.Z.

[george wilson]

Plenty of second rate junk was made in the old days.I have done plenty of rehardening and retempering old tools that people in Williamsburg bought privately to use. Some of them were good brands like Witherby,Butcher,etc. I've seen them come in with cutting edges bent back like fish hooks,or way too hard,and chipping off. I've seen welded bits come loose,due to never being properly welded.

These were 19th.C. tools,not even getting into the 20th.C. junk.

[Jim Koepke]

Funny story, just today I was working on a cabinet project and had my trusty LN plane. My wife never ever notices my tools let alone says anything about them, even the Festool stuff. Today she actually stopped in her tracks and said something like, "Wow, look at that plane. That is amazing. You should do more projects that use hand tools like this..." She wouldn't stop talking about it!

Did I marry the right woman or what? Of course we didn't talk about how much it cost, but even the best marriage must have a few secrets!

Break it to her slowly with a quality and value cost a little more approach. Sharpen the blade and take the thinnest shaving you can and save it for when she is reading or during a commercial. Then hold it in front of her so she can see through it and tell her the plane she thought was so cool made that shaving.

If done before your birthday and household budget allowing, you could say something about how one of these days you wanted to get another plane from the same family.

This works especially well if you have just completed a project for her.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

Awright, that's a clear gloat that demands a picture (or a link to the thread that contains the original gloat).

OK, it took a while, but I did find the original gloat post. The plane in the middle is the type 6 #4. The one on the left is a Bedrock 604 and the one on the right is a type 6 #4-1/2. Since then, I have bought two more type 6 #4 bodies and one frog. Have not put them together yet. Probably should and start selling off the excess.


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=76010

Here is the thread with pictures of how they looked after a little fettling:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=78317

jim

[Mat Ashton]

Hold on there. Tools used "back then" for masterpieces were in most cases, the very best available. They were not cheap. They were protected and cared for and passed on. Those old tools were made from better materials than most of the mass produced tools we see at our hardware stores. Sure, skills are important to our craft. However, for me, the pleasure of doing it is more important. And I get much more pleasure making shavings with my LN than grinding, and readjusting a lesser plane.

Well they were not all the best available... Yes there were those that could afford the best but they were, like today, in the minority. And even if they were the best available they were still substandard compared to what is readily available today. I consider Veritas to be readily available to the masses by the way; 40 plus years ago it was Stanley... A bedrock was and still is a much better plane than any available 250 plus years ago - there's no questioning that. I can only imagine what those back then could have achieved if they had what we take for granted today... But if you were to produce the below pictures with what was available 250 years ago most would consider you a furniture making god... Both produced in the mid to late 1700's.

[Mat Ashton]

I don't want to be rude, but this is simply not true.

Since at least the 18th century, craftsmen were able to get tools that in function, were at or near the standards of the best tools we have today. With all the advances we've made in engineering, there's been precious little that actually increased the FUNCTION of hand tools. Our improvements have made great strides in making them more consistent and easier (cheaper) to make, but not necessarily better.

It is a common mistake, but a mistake nevertheless to think of our ancestors (or their tools) as "primitive".

I think you're forgetting that in that day, as today, the creme de la creme of hand tools were not available to the masses. Most used the cheaper stuff that we all resign ourselves to today. In 200 hundred years you'll see many of LN and better planes being sold as coveted collectors but very few craftmans. Why because no one coveted and cherished the cheap stuff - only the expensive stuff and that's why it survives the centuries. At best what's available to the collector today from the 1700s is maybe 10% (I suspect far less) of what was out there being used at the time - the stuff no one wanted to preserve because it was cheap run of the mill stuff...

[Robert Rozaieski]

A bedrock was and still is a much better plane than any available 250 plus years ago - there's no questioning that.

I think there is questioning that. Use a Clark & Williams plane or any well tuned wooden plane and see for yourself. The tools used to make the pieces in the 18th century were absolutely not primitive, not archaic and not inferior. The cabinetmakers at Colonial Williamsburg use exact replicas of 18th century tools to make exact replicas of the exact pieces you have pictured. These folks are living proof that the tools were just as good. Just because they didn't have milling machines and surface grinders doesn't mean they couldn't make quality tools.

[Mike Henderson]

I have to side with Robert on this. Our ancestors were us, meaning they were just as smart and skillful as we are. The difference is usually time, meaning it may take longer to produce an accurate tool, and keep it in tune, than buying a well made modern tool (such as a LN). It may also take more time to do a woodworking task, such as stock preparation (our modern power jointers and planers make short work of stock preparation).

But from my own experience, I'm convinced you can do anything with a wooden plane that you can do with a modern metal plane. I don't find it as easy to adjust a wooden plane as a modern metal plane, but once I have it adjusted it works as well.

As George Wilson commented earlier, I'm sure that not all the plane blades were good - made with the right amount of carbon and heat treated correctly. But once you got a good iron, it would last a very long time in a wooden plane.

We also have better methods of sharpening tools today, but our ancestors were able to sharpen their tools sufficient to their needs.

I feel confident that if I were transported back to an 18th century woodworking shop, I would be able to build quality furniture. I wouldn't be as fast as some of the younger or the more experienced workers, but I could do it, and do as well as I do today in my powered shop.

Mike

[Don C Peterson]

I think you're forgetting that in that day, as today, the creme de la creme of hand tools were not available to the masses. Most used the cheaper stuff that we all resign ourselves to today. In 200 hundred years you'll see many of LN and better planes being sold as coveted collectors but very few craftmans. Why because no one coveted and cherished the cheap stuff - only the expensive stuff and that's why it survives the centuries. At best what's available to the collector today from the 1700s is maybe 10% (I suspect far less) of what was out there being used at the time - the stuff no one wanted to preserve because it was cheap run of the mill stuff...

Certainly there were differing quality of tools, and I take your point about the good stuff being what we have because it was what got taken care of. There is some validity to that point, I've made exactly the same point when it comes to clothes and furniture of the time. This fact, I think, does tend to make our view of history overly romantic, but that's another topic...

However, I do think that tools were a bit different than most other goods of the day. Apprenticeship systems generally sifted out those who were would-be hacks and would teach a craftsman to appreciate and properly care for quality tools. It also gave the craftsmen time to acquire their tools.

Without the modern methods of production (and dare I say outsourcing to China, India, etc...?), there wasn't a great deal of savings in making a cheap plane versus a competent one, at least not compared to the difference in cost today between making a LN and a Groz. So, I don't think there was quite as much differentiation in quality then as there is today, and I still maintain that a good quality hand tool from the 18th or 19th centuries can hold its own against our best.

[Rod Sheridan]

I think well made tools are less expensive than they ever were.

My FIL retired from a litetime as a cabinet maker, having served his apprenticeships in England. I was looking at stuff in his tool chest one day and remarked about a nice plane.

His response was that it should be, it cost him a fortnights wage when he was an apprentice.

Most people today purchase a Veritas plane for aproximately a days wage.

Unfortunately for some people, cost is the only measure, so they miss a lot in life.

Regards, Rod.

[george wilson]

I had to work with 18th.C. hand tools for many years,and really produced my finest work with them. If you google george wilson guitar maker,the marquetry covered guitar,and the highly inlaid lute were made entirely with hand tools in public. I made a wooden fret saw of yew wood,whose throat was deep enough to encompass the entire guitar to saw the marquetry out.

It takes training and skill development to use planes that have no adjustment mechanisms. They can be adjusted to take off shavings as fine as any LN plane if the user has the skill.

Look back farther in history. At the Metropolitan Museum of art in New York,last summer,I saw a special exhibit of inlaid stone tables and "paintings" in inlaid stone. In one example,they still had the original oil painting from which the stone copy was made.It was amazing how well the stone craftsmen pulled it off. The oil painting was old and faded,but the stone's colors were as fresh as the day it was made. The work from the 16th.C. was better quality than the 18th.C. examples. The inlays fit tighter,and the art work was superb.

It couldn't have been the availability of superior tools in the 16th.C. that was responsible for the better quality. It was a stricter tradition of craftsmanship and a demand for better work from a more enlightened clientele that enhanced the work.

That intricate marquetry was sawn out with iron wire saws using sand as a cutting agent. Yet,there was not 100th.of an inch gap in the fitting of the inlays in the earlier work. Later,it was more like 1/64" tolerance.

Earlier,in countries like Italy,the system was so strict that you had to go into the same trade your father was in. England was more democratic. that old system did produce remarkable pieces of work,though it was,no doubt,harder on the craftsman who had to live up to standards or starve.

[Brian Kent]

One testimony to the relative cost of fine tools now and long ago is the number of us who can take up fine woodworking as a hobby. Many here are professionals, but a lot of us are building our skills and tools slowly, over time, with leftover time and income. Most of my hand tools are old rehabs or hand-made tools, but I do greatly appreciate my one LN and my one LV plane. I am grateful to have access to great tools even though this is not my job.

[Richard Niemiec]

It couldn't have been the availability of superior tools in the 16th.C. that was responsible for the better quality. It was a stricter tradition of craftsmanship and a demand for better work from a more enlightened clientele that enhanced the work.

As my father used to quote to me: " 'Tis a poor craftsman who blames his tools."

Better quality tools will certainly make the job go faster, but has little to do with the end product..... that's where the craftsman, or more appropriately, the artist, comes into play.

[Mark Roderick]

I have my own personal anecdote on this score.

Way back when, I was a young homeowner with no tools, knowledge, or skills. I needed to cut a rectangular opening from a soffit to install a simple vent. I went to the local Rickel's (you see, that was LONG ago) and bought a Black and Decker jigsaw. I returned to my house and found that the Black & Decker jigsaw wouldn't cut through wood! I spent about half an hour and nearly burned up the saw just cutting a small rectangle.

A couple of years later I bought my first real tool, a Bosch jigsaw. Wow. So THAT's what a jigsaw is supposed to do.

Some "tools" in the consumer market are so bad they don't even deserve to be called tools - they simply can't be used for their intended purpose. My Black & Decker jigsaw wouldn't cut wood. In this context, you'd never say the Bosch was "expensive" and the Black & Decker was "affordable," you'd say that any amount you paid for the Black & Decker was throwing money into the garbage.

That might be true of a Craftsman hand plane also. I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.