Lie-Nielsen pricey pretty stuff.....

[Rick Cicciarelli]

I know Lie-Nielsen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Craftsman, but boy, sometimes one needs reminding of the justification for spending $165 on a Lie-Nielsen block plane when you can buy a Craftsman for $36.

[Joel Goodman]

Just try the Craftsman. A better comparison is a prewar Stanley, MF etc and a new LN.

[John Schreiber]

I know Lie-Nielsen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Craftsman, but boy, sometimes one needs reminding of the justification for spending $165 on a Lie-Nielsen block plane when you can buy a Craftsman for $36.

Rick,

I'm a skinflint. Seriously I'm cheap and I don't have much money and I'm putting my daughter through college. I received a gift certificate for $75 at Lie-Nielsen from my mom and I considered selling it so that I could buy other things which seemed more reasonable to me. I was persuaded to put another $81 of my own money into purchasing the 60 1/2 low angle block plane you refer to above (it was $150 + $6 for shipping at the time).

It is now my favorite tool and my finest tool. It is probably the finest thing I own. Most of my other tools were purchased used and unless something falls off a money tree, most of my future purchases will be used tools too. I don't doubt for a minute though that a Lie-Nielsen plane is a good value for the price.

[Rick Cicciarelli]

Oh yeah, between quality and customer service, I've read nothing but the best....I'm just saying...now and again, one needs reminding why one tool might be worth spending 5 times as much as you might spend on something else....

[Jim Koepke]

Oh yeah, between quality and customer service, I've read nothing but the best....I'm just saying...now and again, one needs reminding why one tool might be worth spending 5 times as much as you might spend on something else....

An LN or LV will work fine right out of the box.

I have bought very few old chisels or planes that did not need some work. Many of them took a lot of work. Only one comes to mind that worked without even sharpening. Some took a lot of rust removal, handle replacement, tote glueing, lapping and other fettling. For me, it was enjoyable. Others may wish to spend the extra money and have a tool that is made to a higher quality standard than the old used tools in my accumulation. Besides, if there is something wrong with one of my old planes, it is on me to fix it or live with it. LN and LV stand behind what they sell.

For me using a hundred year old tool that has been brought back to life has a certain satisfaction. Surely, it is also satisfying to use a fine modern made tool that is likely better built than my oldies.

jim

[Martin Shupe]

Oh yeah, between quality and customer service, I've read nothing but the best....I'm just saying...now and again, one needs reminding why one tool might be worth spending 5 times as much as you might spend on something else....

OK, I'll remind you...

1) you get what you pay for.
2) from LN, you will get QUALITY.

[Peter Scoma]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k

PS

[Mat Ashton]

There is often one very crucial point that most don't consider when purchasing tools. Most seem to feel that good tools will make them better at what they doing. But! it can easily be argued that some of the finest furniture ever produced was over 250 years ago. Guess what they used for tools in comparison to what we have available. Even a cheap craftsman plane is better than what was available to most back them... Proof positive that tools are by far the least of the factors that a person needs to posses when it comes to making a "masterpiece"... But if you can afford them fill your boots. And if you can't then maybe developing the necessary skills to over come the short comings of those garage sale specials is your lot in life. Personally I think most would be more satisfied with developing the skills rather than having a cabinet full of tools that are more an insurance liability than a project help.

YMMV

[Richard Magbanua]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k

PS

I've been rehabbing old Stanleys for a year and have done pretty well. However, I decided to reward myself by getting a Lie-Nielsen low angle jack recently. Best tool I own.

Really, comparing planes such as the Craftsman or Stanleys, new or old, to a Camry isn't accurate. The Camry WILL RUN when you buy it. Imagine buying a used car only to have to take it apart, adjust and clean all the parts, change the tires, put it all back together, give it a tune up and then maybe repaint it. Buying a new car would only mean the same thing, except for the paint job.

" Even a cheap craftsman plane is better than what was available to most back them... Proof positive that tools are by far the least of the factors that a person needs to posses when it comes to making a "masterpiece"..."

Hold on there. Tools used "back then" for masterpieces were in most cases, the very best available. They were not cheap. They were protected and cared for and passed on. Those old tools were made from better materials than most of the mass produced tools we see at our hardware stores. This is the whole reason for the success of companies like Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley.
Sure, skills are important to our craft. However, for me, the pleasure of doing it is more important. And I get much more pleasure making shavings with my LN than grinding, and readjusting a lesser plane.

[David Keller NC]

A couple of interesting points in this thread.

For the most part, a well-tuned and in good shape pre WWII Stanley bench plane, with a replacement blade, will work pretty much as well as a Lie-Nielsen of the same size. They don't have the same heft, but sometimes that's not necessary. However, that's not true when it comes to block planes. I've several old Stanleys that the L-N 60 series were based on, and they don't perform anywhere near as well, even with extensive tuning and replacement blades. This is one case where L-N made a vast improvement in this design.

And regarding the idea that the masterpieces of the 18th century were made with tools "not as good as" a craftsman block plane - this is far, far, from the truth. Clark and Williams has proved this beyond any shadow of a doubt. A new version of a wooden smoother will greatly outperform a crappy craftsman iron smoother. Moreover, the saws that were in use then are massively better for fine work than anything you can get on the cheap end from Stanley, Craftsman, Buck Brothers, etc... In fact, it is these very saws that have sparked the revolution in performance that are now available from Wenzloff, Lie-Nielsen, Veritas, Medallion, and others.

[Narayan Nayar]

Keep in mind, Rick, that LN planes are built in the USA by people who love their jobs and who work for what seems to be a great company who treats them very well. Despite the obvious differences in quality and performance, I think Tom and his crew set a great example of how a manufacturing company can keep people gainfully and happily employed making a fantastic product at a cost relative to that endeavor.

So I'd turn your statement around. I'd say anyone who considers a $36 Craftsman plane a great value has forgotten the important difference between "low cost" and "value"--particularly in the context of social responsibility. I'm definitely not saying everyone who buys a Craftsman plane is socially irresponsible; I'm saying that those who don't know why a Craftsman plane costs much less than a Lie-Nielsen plane should probably look closer at both the planes and how their respective business models affect communities and economies.

[John Shuk]

The choice is throwing $36 out the window or getting something that exceeds expectations for $165.

[Joe McMahon]

Rick, your bio doesn't mention where you are located so I can't tell you where to go to see a Lie Nielsen showing. Check their web site and find the closest Lie-Nielsen tool showing and go there.

LN brings everything that they produce and they bring it so you can test drive it. You just pick up whatever meets your fancy, head over to a bench, grab a piece of wood and have a go at it.

All of our words won't compare to your first experience using one of their fine tools. That is all that it takes.

Joe

[Mike Henderson]

And why buy a ferrari for 175K when you can drive a camry for 18k

PS

A bit off topic but an excellent question. A Ferrari is built to go fast but in our modern cities and towns, you cannot drive it to its limits. You'll basically drive it the same as the Camry. Additionally, the Ferrari will suffer massive depreciation as soon as you drive it off the lot. And when you take it in for service, it'll cost you a fortune.

You're very limited in what you could haul in a Ferrari. And for some people, the Ferrari is not a very comfortable car.

As someone who has owned expensive sports cars in the past, I would buy the Camry today. It does what it is supposed to do at a reasonable price, it's easier on the environment, and it will last a long time. The total cost of the Camry is less than the first year's depreciation on the Ferrari.

"Wanting an expensive sports car is better than owning an expensive sports car."

Mike

[Robert Rozaieski]

Guess what they used for tools in comparison to what we have available. Even a cheap craftsman plane is better than what was available to most back them

Obviously you've never used a well tuned wooden plane . The tools they used were exceptionally hand made by master toolmakers, not a factory in China. Just ask George Wilson. The tools they used in the 18th and early 19th centuries were not the archaic, primitive items that many make them out to be. All my planes are woodies and probably 150 years old or thereabouts and they perform just as well as a modern day "Ferrari".

...tools are by far the least of the factors that a person needs to posses when it comes to making a "masterpiece"...

Yes! Skills with the tools are far more important than the tools themselves. However, there is a difference between the inexpensive tools made today like the cheapo Buck Brothers planes sold by HD and the premium stuff.

I don't typically buy these new premium tools not because I have something against LN or LV or Bridge City or any of the boutique infill makers or any other premium tool maker for that matter but simply because I can't typically afford them and not many makers are making replicas of 18th century tools (my preferred style of tool). In fact, I equate the new premium toolmakers to the toolmakers from the 18th century. 200 years ago, tools were exclusively made by what today we would call a boutique maker. I think if you looked at a comparative cost of typical planes chisels and saws from the 18th century, you'd find that their cost was closer to the LNs and LVs of today rather than the Craftsmans and the Buck Brothers. Craftsmen from the 18th century depended on their tools for their livelyhood. Most of us don't.

Consider this, an 18th century cabinetmaker's tool kit would probably have cost them several months pay if they had to buy everything new. Most earned many of their tools as a form of pay during their apprenticeship, which took years. Many other tools were self made.

So, can a modern Craftsman plane be made to perform like a LN? Absolutely. However, when you consider the time invested in remachining/filing the bed, the mating surfaces between the frog and body, the sole, etc. the prices get a little closer. If you typically put a price on your time, go with a more premium tool to start. If you consider the tool tuning part of the enjoyment of the craft, buy the less expensive tool and learn how to make it perform.

I'm with John S. I'm cheap and I like real old tools so if I can get a tool I need used and make it work, I do. My try plane is one of my best and I paid $1. However, when I don't want to put in the time it would take to find what I want used (chisels are a good example) I won't hesitate to buy a new premium tool (my chisels are London pattern AI and my carving tools are new Henry Taylor).