Check out my legs

[george wilson]

David,of course regional differences are well known. I want you to be aware that some of the pieces of furniture,such as attributed to Scott,or whoever else,is based entirely upon Wallace Gussler's opinion. I'm not saying he's wrong,but there is no labeling on hese pieces,so everything is based upon features,such as the flattened ball and claw foot,that Gussler attributes to various makers. Some of the provenance of pieces are based upon family traditions. If you watch the Antiques Roadshow,you will many times have seen family traditions be way off of dates,and areas where the owners thought a piece came from,sometimes by hundreds of years,and thousands of miles.

We have only ONE signed piece from 18th.C. Williamsburg: a masonic chair signed by Benjamin Bucktrout,stamped into the back,and misspelled.

[Jim Kountz]

Well this is all certainly very interesting to say the least. George and David I appreciate the time you took for this I feel like the research is as if not more important than the actual building of the piece. Either way its alot of fun to look back on these things to see where we came from.

[george wilson]

Jim,if I want to make something authentic,like a flintlock pistol,I may spend several months researching subtle changes that seemed to occur about every 15 years in the 18th.C. Then,I choose the characteristics from several different pistols in the same time and design around those parameters. I don't personally like to slavishly copy things,though I got paid to do that as tool maker. As instrument maker,I designed my own inlay and carving,but made sure it fitted into the period properly.

If work does not fit the period you are trying to emulate,it is a waste of time to even attempt it. I hope you get what I am trying to say. Proper research is very important.

[Dewey Torres]

I am surprised Mike Holden hasn't responded. This is his game!

[mike holden]

Jim,
There are straight lines in your cabriole leg shape. The cabriole leg is based on Hogarth's "line of beauty" an ess - shaped curve.
The most important thing is to have a continuous, fair, curve throughout.

I will bet that if I were to look at your template, there are straight sections on it.

However, if you are making reproductions - then you are bound by the piece you are copying. You will need a good straight on shot of the leg to develop your template from. The Townsend-Goddard cabriole leg does have straight lines in it. I also think it is the least successful of their forms, but that is *my* taste.

I think that the leg should have a "spring" or "lift" to its shape. I should appear as though it is flexed to move, like an athlete with his weight on the balls of his feet.

Here are some pics of my foot, the unfinished one, compared to one by Phil Lowe. Mine is to my taste, Phil's is a reproduction of a Philadelphia piece. Note the straight line at the back of Phil's leg. Also, be aware that these pics were taken during a class on carving the claw&ball foot, the leg work was off-topic. And I am in NO WAY ragging on Phil's leg, he was bound by the original - I wasn't!

HoldenLowe01.JPG HoldenLowe03.JPG

Here are the templates from my footstools, an 11 inch high one (definitely NOT a reproduction) and a 17 inch high one.

Templates.jpg

And the legs they made:

11 inch leg.JPG 17 inch leg.JPG

Let me know if you have any other questions,
Mike

[george wilson]

Mike,you confirmed my post.

[Jim Kountz]

Mike those legs look great!! I can really see what you mean about the gentle curve and yes my pattern has straight lines down the back and the front. Crap. Back to the ol drawing board I go!! Im determined to get this right and I have LOTS of pine to practice on before I commit to my chunk o walnut.

[Calvin Hobbs]

Jim,

For a good read, you might want to check out Fine Points of Furniture, by Albert Sack. He definitely has a style to get used to, but he is usually on as he describes the cabriole legs in the book. He uses terms like stiffness, heaviness, abrupt, weak, beautiful, ideal, etc. to discuss why he thinks some pieces are Good, Better, or Best. There are two versions, the Original and the New Fine Points, the older one is very inexpensive on the internet, less than $10 probably. The New Fine Points can get expensive, but the photography is much better and in color.

I see a lot of cabriole legs that are not smooth in the transition from round to sharp on the outside corner going up toward the knee block. Here are a couple of pics from some chairs I built last year.

I admire you for tackling them. A couple of reps and you will get it down.

Thanks for the thread, Cal

[Dewey Torres]

Mike those legs look great!! I can really see what you mean about the gentle curve and yes my pattern has straight lines down the back and the front. Crap. Back to the ol drawing board I go!! Im determined to get this right and I have LOTS of pine to practice on before I commit to my chunk o walnut.

Jim,
Mike has shown you the legs I kept bragging about on my visit to his shop. If you are ever in MI you should see if you can go visit him. Hard to put into words until you see what the man does underneath a staircase!

[Dewey Torres]

Jim,
You must have some hot looking legs as 500 folks have viewed this post so far

[mike holden]

Dewey,
Thanks for the kind words, I have edited my signature in response.
Mike

[Jim Kountz]

I made this pattern today trying to copy an original the best I could. I scaled if from a photograph which by the way is a royal pain in the rumpus. I did have a nice straight on shot of it though and I referenced a tutorial from Lonnie Bird on cabriole legs. I like the curve of this one alot better and I think Im going to go ahead and make a mock up of it and see what I got.
What do you think of this one guys?

[mike holden]

Jim,
If you are making a reproduction, then you are probably good to go.
If you are making a piece to please your self, and want some input, then, what *I* would do, is bring the lower back edge of your template in a bit. It will put the visual weight more on the toe. Reality check is to run a straight edge down from the corner block which will reveal just how far back on its heels you are.
If you have a daughter, or perhaps your wife with some ballet experience - ask them to show you a "plie'" - the moment before the heel lifts is the tension *I* would be looking for.
Mike

[David Keller NC]

Jim - Couple of comments. Along the lines of Mike's comment, I think you might be trying to squeeze the leg out of stock that's too thin - on your rough-out, the lower third of the back of the leg is absolutely straight, and what you're typically going for is a nice fair curve (however, I'm also aware that might be an optical illusion from the square corners - once you rasp or carve those off, it might have a pretty good termination to the "s").

One other thought - the way you've got the crain lines oriented will form a "bulls-eye" in the center of the knee when you get the leg finished. One tip I picked up from Jeffrey Greene's book is to use rift-sawn stock, and orient the growth rings so that they follow the shape of the leg.

Keep in mind though, that while there's a good aesthetic point to Jeffrey's observation, period cabinet makers did not always follow this rule. The John Goddard tea table sold at auction at Sotheby's in 2005 (for 7 million, I think) had at least one of the legs done in the orientation that you've pictured - a nice clear "bullseye" in the middle of the anthemion carving on the knee. Since it was in dark mahogany, though, I think the flash of the camera may have accentuated it more than it would appear in person in normal room light.

[Jim Kountz]

Dave thanks again for the info, about the grain direction, actually what you see there is a 1/4" plywood template so the grain is irrelevant there. But I do know what you're talking about on the actual leg as far as the bullseye is concerned. As far as the stock size, I was using the dimensions given by Lonnie Bird in his tutorial since the legs in that article were the same size as the ones Im working on. He gave the dimensions for the knee, ankle and foot and then listed the stock size he cut his out of. One thing Im not understanding most all the patterns I see (sans the ones Mike sent me) all have a short portion of them that are straight on the back of the leg. Take a look at the picture I posted here at the middle leg, why does this have a straight portion at the back?? Is this considered "wrong" because this is the example Bird gave as being "just right". Very confusing to the untrained eye!!
Thanks again though for everything, Im getting there stick with me!!