planes - bang for the buck

[Thomas Crawford]

Looking to make my first handplane purchases and want to get the most bang for my buck, a combination of used and new. I figure I want to get one new plane that just needs some sharpening so I can feel what a properly tuned tool feels like when working wood.

The new planes I'm considering are the bevel-up jointer, jack, and smoother from lee valley.

Which of the new planes gives me the most for my money?

Which old planes should I target? Looking for the common Stanleys, good users that are moderately priced.

I don't mind doing some basic cleaning and tuning of a used plane, but would probably pay a little more for one that someone else has already tuned. I just read the thread on flattening the #7 and not sure I want to attempt anything like that yet.

edit to add that my first project is the Roubo bench, so I will need to plane and joint 8' long 2x4's that have been ripped from 2x10's and 2x12's (SYP).

[Ben Rafael]

Which of the new planes gives me the most for my money?

(SYP).

Depends on what you want to do?
I love my #7 and have done smoothing with it. I also use it for prepping nearly all my edges before edge joining.
The plane I get the most use out of is my block plane. I have one from LV that has an adjustable mouth. I find it to be a nice all around tool.

[Thomas Crawford]

Basically I want the 2-3 planes that will enable me to build the Roubo bench in Schwartz's book entirely by hand.

After that I owe the wife a bookshelf, and then I'm going to build a hanging tool cabinet for the shop.

[Brian Kent]

The most useful all around plane for my use is the Lee Valley Bevel Up Jack. I would choose the harder blade plus one extra with a steeper angle. Although it is a jack, it is also excellent for a final smooth finish.

If the others are used, I would say a well-tuned adjustable mouth block plane (like an old Stanley 60-1/2), a smoother (3, 4, or 4-1/2), and for that big surface, a #7. The #7 is the best one to go used on because new jointer planes are really expensive!

I always recommend one more - the Rosewood High Angle Polish Plane. For $55 it cannot be beat on many of the woods I work with.

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/produ...&dept_id=13602

Now backing off a bit - if I could have just 2 planes, they would be the Lee Valley Low Angle Jack and an adjustable mouth block plane.

Brian

[Jim Koepke]

An adjustable mouth, low angle, block plane would be the one on my list to buy new. Of all the planes in my shop, it is one that gets used on almost every job. It is great on end grain and also good for chamfering corners.

My current crop consists of pairs of 60-1/2 and 65s by Stanley.

The reason these would be my choice for the premium lines is the price between a good used and new is less than what my experience has been with the bench planes. They are a little more tricky to tune than a bench plane. Block planes are also a little less forgiving of rough handling. Many block planes suffer stress cracks around the mouth from the lever cap being on too tight. They can also get stripped adjusting screws when people don't loosen the cap to adjust the blade. Finally, so many of them I see for auction are missing the mouth adjusting harp. Unless you feel lucky, it is best to be knowledgeable on block planes before buying used.

Bench planes are enough headache to buy used, which is my suggestion. I do not disagree with others who like new planes. They are good value. How ever, my life has been making and repairing things, why stop now. There can be a lot of enjoyment in buying a tool that was made a century ago and spend a little time with it to make it work as well, or better, as it ever has. Only two of my bench planes have cost me more than $40. Most of them well less than that.

As far as actual sizes to get depends a lot on you. If you are going to do edge joining of boards for deep shelves and cabinets, then my suggestion would lean toward a #7 or #8 Stanley. If you are buying these on eBay, then look at the completed auctions to get an idea of what their recent prices. My bit of luck was mine came with handles that had been painted by a person working in a shop where the different workers had different colors on their handles to ID their tools. That kept the bidding down and the plane had been well cared for. Also look for recent bids on any parts that may be missing. You will often find it is cheaper to buy a completed plane than to try an put one together.

Then there is the question of your using surfaced wood or rough wood. If you are using surfaced wood that just needs a little work, then one cheap way to get a good surfacing plane would be to get a #6 Stanley. One of the authorities on all planes Stanley, Patrick Leach, has questioned the reasoning behind ever making such. Hence, the pricing is lower. At 18 inches long, it can be used as a big jack or a short joiner. With operator care, it should be able to smooth the boards for the bench for joining. Otherwise if the boards for your bench are being joined on the 4" edge, a #8 may be the best for this job. It is the widest and longest of the Stanley bench planes.

For smoothing, I do like my #4-1/2. It is a bit heavier than a #4. The #4 is much more common and thus less expensive on the used market.

Near the top of the thread listings for Neanderthal Haven is Neanderthal Wisdom, FAQs. There are a lot of links in there. Some to others who sell used planes, Walt at Brass City Records comes to mind. There is also a lot of sites with a lot of information about planes. So, it is worth looking into before you buy.

If you have any questions about planes you are looking at on eBay, I am always happy to give my opinion. I am not in the market for eBay planes currently, but that is where many of mine were found. Of course, there is no way to tell the condition of what can not be seen. I have bought what looked like rust buckets just for the parts only to find there were some good planes under the rust that came off fairly easy.

As far as lapping the sole goes, there are different opinions on this. My philosophy is if the plane is working fine, then I shouldn't spend much time fixing what ain't broken. Others will stress if it is 0.0001" out of flat. The grit on 100 sandpaper will put deeper scratches than that on the sole.

Finally, another point of disagreement when buying used is how old? My preference is for planes built before the 1920s. It is a personal preference based on a few observations and preferences. The Sweet Hart era began in the 1920s and these tend to carry a price premium. Not that they are better planes, it is the company history of the time. The one feature I do like about these is in 1920, the adjuster nut was upsized, making it a little easier to adjust the blade. I have converted most of my planes to this feature. Next, for a little more savings, the planes built from 1902 till before 1910 have all but a Frog Adjusting Screw. It is a nice, but unneeded feature. With out the FAS, the planes are a touch cheaper. Really, unless one is trying to dial in a perfect setting, the FAS requires as much work to use than just doing without. I think only three of the planes in the picture below have the FAS. If you do need to set the frog different a lot, then it might be easier to get a second plane of the same size and have the two set for the different use.

I think there are only five or six bench planes in my shop not in the picture. The only Stanley bench plane not in my shop is the #8. If one comes around in my price range, then there will be one. In my thoughts, the #10 series are specialty planes, not bench planes.

Of all my planes, the #4s through #6 get the most use.

jim

[Eric Brown]

When looking at older planes you might consider getting one's with corrigated bottoms. They sell for slightly more but the bottoms have less metal to remove when flattening (If needed at all). I also find that the corrigations hold extra wax and that can make planing sappy wood easier.

If I could only have two planes they would be the Veritas premium block plane (I love mine) and either a 5 1/2 L-N Bedrock or #7 Stanley with a thick blade.

One more thing. None of the planes will work well unless you can also sharpen them. Better blades stay sharp longer, thicker one's chatter less, but they all get dull eventually.

For sharpening I use the Sharptons from L-N.

Eric

[scott spencer]

If I were looking for 3 planes to get started I'd go with a 6" block plane, #3 and #5. There are others that certainly have more experience than me, but I've found alot of good old used planes from Millers Falls, Record, and the Stanley Baileys that are very functional and affordable. They're also much cooler than new planes IMO. Like many things, there are different lines at different quality levels, and different eras when some were better than others.

The better Millers Falls planes use numbers like 8, 9, 10, 11, and 14 as oppposed to their lesser lines with 2 & 3 digits like the 90 or 814. (Note that the Millers Falls numbering system is different than Stanley's... MF #8 is the equivalent of a Bailey #3, and an MF #14 is the equivalent of a Bailey #5)

The Baileys from Type 17 and earlier are very good, are easy to come by, and are generally very reasonable. Type 11 to pre-WWII era are particularly popular. ...skip the Stanley "Handyman's", etc.

Most of the Record planes I've seen are pretty good, but I'd shy away from their newer offerings. Their markings tend to mimic Stanley's from era to era.

A Bailey 5-1/4 Type 13:


A Record 04:

From L to R, Record 9-1/2 block, 3, 4, 4-1/2, 5, 5-1/2, 6, and 7:


MF #9,11, & 14:

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thomas,

If you are going to buy a combination of new and used planes, here's my recommendation. It may be worth exactly what you payed for it but you asked .

For your new plane, go with the jointer; low angle or standard angle is up to you, it really makes no difference. My reasons for suggesting you get the jointer as your new plane are first, because a jointer needs to be relatively flat. If you end up with a used jointer that is not flat enough, they are a lot of work and much more difficult to get to acceptably flat than a shorter plane. Second, for making your workbench, or any piece of furniture by hand for that matter, it will likely be your most used plane.

The smoother can be bought new or used, your choice. The advantages of new would be relatively little tune up required but you will pay for that in a higher price tag. The advantages of used are reduced monetary investment but potentially more investment in time to tune the tool up. Depends on what is more valuable to you and if you consider time to tune a used tool as part of the cost of the tool or part of the enjoyment of using it. Flattening a smoother (only if it needs it though) is relatively easy because of the short sole, which makes it a good candidate for buying used. One thing to keep in mind, in a hand tool shop, your smoother is your least used plane (another point for the used option). The jack and jointer will see much more use if you do all your planing by hand. I also recommend you do not smooth plane your bench top unless you like chasing your stock all over your shop when planing. You don't want a smooth (translation: slippery) top. You want a top that has a little grip to it to keep your work from sliding all over the place. So stop after flattening with the jointer.

Finally, I recommend you absolutely do not buy a new jack plane. Jack planes are roughing tools and it sounds like that is exactly what you are going to use it for if you are building a bench entirely by hand. For this purpose, it should have a wide mouth, a cambered iron and be capable of taking a thick shaving to bring stock to dimension quickly. It also does not need to be really flat to do this so buying a really expensive new jack plane is a waste in my mind. This is the perfect tool to buy used. Also, get a standard angle jack plane if you want to use it for rough planing, not a low angle. The iron will need less camber than a low angle model and the perceived versatility (which I really don't buy into anyway) is irrelevant in a roughing tool.

So there you have it:

Jointer - New
Smoother - New or Used based on how you perceive your time regarding tuning old tools
Jack - Absolutely Used

Again, take it for what it's worth !

Edit: I see a lot of recommendations for a block plane. While a block plane may be useful for smaller projects in the future, it will be worthless for building your bench so I say skip it for now. You could even wait on the smoother until your bench is built. You'll need the jack and jointer only to build your bench.

[Dave Spaeder]

A new bevel-up jack plane will give you a lot of flexibility and value. The used versions tend to be expensive enough that the newer versions by LV or LN are a good buy. Despite longstanding tool lore, they are ignorant of their designated purpose and can be set up to do rough or fine work, depending on what you need at the moment.

As others have said, the low-angle block plane is another place to buy new. A block plane may seem like it's too small for a bench-sized project, but unless you finish all your pieces a lot more perfectly than I do (and I'm willing to concede that most people probably do), you'll always be picking one up to do that last bit of adjustment.

After that, I'd try my luck with used bench planes, especially a jointer, either a 7 or an 8. Don't get too scared off by the tales of flattening these things. I've bought a few over the years and have used them without much beyond a mostly cosmetic tuning.

And remember that you might just want a couple of planes to get started right now, but over time, you'll almost inevitably end up with more. Have fun!

[Thomas Crawford]

Thanks for all wisdom. I think I will need the block plane - I am putting in the sliding deadman and could use it with a guide to make the 1/2" chamfer, and the smaller chamfers for the legs.

I'm torn between a new jointer or new jack plane. A question that came to mind was whether I need a fence for jointing the edges of the long 2x4's. Are fences for the stanley's #7/8 readily available and do they work well?

[Raney Nelson]

While I think the LV BU jack is the most versatile plane you mentioned, I personally would agree with Robert's post above. Out of all the planes you list, the hardest to find in very good condition is the jointer - and flatness counts there. Vintage smoothers, jacks, and block planes are relatively easy to find in very nice shape, and if they're 'off' they're not too hard to tune up. Flattening a jointer, though, is not just a lot of work: if you're not pretty well-versed in lapping, it's very easy to make the plane worse rather than better.

I am much more fond of bevel down planes myself, but the BU jointer from LV will do the job very well, and it's relatively inexpensive as new planes go... plus, if you decide you want it, the fence for it works quite well. (Vintage stanley fences, by the way, are not that readily available and will almost certainly cost you much more than the LV version).

The fence helps a lot in getting perfect square angles, but personally I'd recommend just doing it freehand and checking frequently with a square. Your ability to do this by 'feel' will develop pretty quickly, and that's a sense that will serve you in very good stead throughout your HT woodworking adventures.


Happy hunting!

[Thomas Crawford]

OK, when I'm looking on "the auction site" there are a lot of planes listed without too much description - is there a resource or rule of thumb to follow so that I get a plane from the pre-wwII era?

Edit: nevermind, read the wisdom/faqs sticky. RTFM

[Jim Koepke]

I'm torn between a new jointer or new jack plane. A question that came to mind was whether I need a fence for jointing the edges of the long 2x4's. Are fences for the stanley's #7/8 readily available and do they work well?

A fence is not needed. A good try square is needed. After using a plane and checking with a try square for a while, you will likely develop a knack for holding the plane square to the work.

What is likely of more concern for your work is a way to hold the wood you will be surfacing to make your bench. I have seen examples of a well mounted beam being used as a planing bench. It is basically a large, long hunk of wood with supports to hold wood while being planed.

Once you have done a few pieces, you will be able to look at the end and see if it is square or not. The eye becomes "calibrated" after awhile.

Before retirement, one of my assignments was to write a manual about the work I was doing. This is from a section of the manual where extra material was included. This is about training the eye. This piece was for spacers, but it can easily translate to other items for which the eyes can be calibrated.

Note: TTMs are what we worked on in our shop. TTM stands for Ticket Transport Mechanism. My employer was a public transit agency.

The Calibrated Eye
The purpose of this exercise is to train your eye to recognize small sizes for what they are.
To do this exercise one needs a lot of mixed spacing washers. The sizes found on our TTMs
are .001, .005, .010, .016, .030 and .040 with occasionally some other odd sizes.
A dial or digital caliper is also needed. Small containers or pieces of paper to separate the
washers into different piles are also needed.
With all the washers mixed in a pile, start measuring with the caliper. Look at the edge of each
one during the measuring process. Separate the washers into piles of washers that measure the
same. After a short time, look at the washer before measuring it and see if you know what it
will measure before it is put in to the caliper. Keep doing this until you get good.
Congratulations you now have calibrated your eyes. Recalibration may be needed if not used
on a regular basis.

jim

[Jim Koepke]

OK, when I'm looking on "the auction site" there are a lot of planes listed without too much description - is there a resource or rule of thumb to follow so that I get a plane from the pre-wwII era?

Edit: nevermind, read the wisdom/faqs sticky. RTFM

Be sure to ask questions of the seller if you have doubts. Most of them will send more pictures if requested. Be cautious of the evasive folks and those who do not reply. I always try to check on what the seller has been selling to gauge their expertise with the items they are selling. Some may not know a knob from a tote or where to find a plane's mouth.

I once bought a plane for parts that had been broken and someone put brass plates on the side with screws to hold it together. It was clear in the pictures. The seller did not realize it was broken and thought it was in great shape. All the other parts were good. Even the brass plates have found a use in my shop.

Some of my best deals came from fuzzy pictures and people who just picked a plane up from a yard sale to sell on eBay. Some specialize in selling tools, some are just picking up all kinds of stuff to see if they can make a profit. Others are cleaning out the garage and just trying to get rid of stuff. Be patient and DON'T GET CAUGHT IN A BIDDING FRENZY. Deals are like trains, if you miss one, another will come along.

Often, a good deal can be had when the seller has poor pictures and short descriptions. If they answer your questions and others do not ask, then you might be the only bidder. Watch out for the shipping costs. A few sellers make that their way of getting the price they want without paying eBay a percentage of the bid.

Good luck,

jim

[Thomas Crawford]

What is likely of more concern for your work is a way to hold the wood you will be surfacing to make your bench. I have seen examples of a well mounted beam being used as a planing bench. It is basically a large, long hunk of wood with supports to hold wood while being planed.

I have a bench I made 8 years ago. No vise, screwed together 2x4's for legs with 2x4 stretchers, and 2x4 apron. The top is 2 pieces of 3/4 plywood. The top is 2'x5' and it overhangs the legs by 1.5".

I think I can definitely get a planing stop configured onto one end and add some support for the longer boards. My main challenge is to somehow clamp to the front to do the edges - thinking about getting a piece of 2x6 and making it even with the top, then use my pipe clamps to secure the board to the front.