Arrrrggghhhh! Even real lumber yards selling it now.

[Ben Cadotte]

First off I have had ok luck with the China "Birch" plywood. But decided when I make my next set of cabinets I would try something a little better. So I go to one of my local "Real" lumber yards and talk to the sales guy. He said he had shop grade Birch plywood for $45 a sheet. I specifically asked if it was the China stuff and he said no. So, I pay for 5 sheets and go out to the yard and pick them up. I started to wonder as it looked just like the Borg stuff but didn't see the tell tale label on it. So, I loaded up the 5 sheets and drove home. Thinking I got some decent ply for shop cabinets for only about 10% more than the Borg's. Was feeling pretty good.

Then I got to my shop and was getting ready to unload the ply. On the side where the lumberyard guy was helping load the ply were these big blue stamps. MADE IN CHINA Not only was it the same CHINA stuff but it ended up costing me $6 a sheet more! I thought it over and decided I would take it back. So, I took it back and was helped by a different salesman. He asked why and I said its the same made in China stuff sold at Lowes / HD. And I said I specifically asked before I bought it if it was mad in CHINA or not. After some talking I ended up switching to some 7 ply fir A/C ply for same price.

The other option was what they list as Birch ply for $72 a sheet. But they could not tell me the source of it. So, I just opted for the FIR.

I have had ok luck with the China stuff. But I am definately not going to pay more for it while still risking that I may get a bad sheet. Their recipt even says no waranty under the product. So they know it may delaminate. And unlike the Borgs will not take it back if it does. I will see how this FIR works out. I really dont want to pay $72 a sheet for garage cabinets.

[guy knight]

its shop grade ply you want a better grade

[John Thompson]

My local supplier clearly marks stacks.... IMPORT.. or DOMESTIC but all you have to do is look at it and it speaks for itself.

Sarge..

[Bruce Page]

If people would quit buying this junk plywood they would quit selling it.

JMHO

[Larry Edgerton]

If people would quit buying this junk plywood they would quit selling it.

JMHO

I not only don't buy it, I make them come and pick it back up. Our local "Real Yard" tried sending me some, and I refused it. They get theirs from Canada now and it is better if not as good as the old stuff.

Speaking of old stuff I bought a bunk of 30 year old birch plywood a few years ago. It was wonderful! All the same size, 3/4 inch exactly, flat, beautiful uniform cores with no voids. The veneer was 1/16 thick! I wish I had been a little more appreciative of it now and had saved it for my own use.

If you accept junk, they will keep stocking it.

[Phil Thien]

My local Menards carries good, U.S. (or at least North American) made stuff. And my lumber yard, when you ask "where is it" will interrupt you and say, "U.S. or Canada," so they are sensitive to the issue.

[george wilson]

The cheapies,and ignorant-of-quality people in our society are dragging down the rest of us with them. It can't just be the folks who cannot afford better products,because too many people are buying it.

[Jules Dominguez]

For the benefit of anyone in the Atlanta metro area, I have over the years bought consistently good quality birch and oak ply at the HD on Highway 78 east of Stone Mountain. The last sheet of birch I bought was about $40 or maybe a few bucks more and that was a couple of months ago. I saw some of the Chinese ply in the same store at the same time, of obviously lower quality, but it was priced lower and clearly marked as Chinese.

[Tony Bilello]

The cheapies,and ignorant-of-quality people in our society are dragging down the rest of us with them. It can't just be the folks who cannot afford better products,because too many people are buying it.

There are more cheapies than you would suspect.
A good example would be a particular tool manufacturer/seller that sells absolute, no doubt about it crap. Their name crops up on here from time to time. Whenever it gets bashed, there will always be the folks that say that their stuff is good and is the best tool they own.
I know several people that can afford quality stuff but are always buying junk because its cheaper.
If a large amount of the population were not cheapies, we would not be left without industry in this country.
It is frustrating for the people that make or sell quality goods because their market is limited.

[John Stevens]

I started to wonder as it looked just like the Borg stuff but didn't see the tell tale label on it. So, I loaded up the 5 sheets and drove home.

Funny, same thing happened to me recently at a very reputable local yard that I've buying nice solid wood and furniture-grade ply from for the past five years. Like you, I noticed that the ply seemed to look just like the cheap stuff at HD, but figured it was my imagination. Definitely not, because after I got it home and started cutting it into parts for credenzas, it was obviously not the same quality as before. Luckily, the voids were not located where I sank the dominos, and the finish was black dye so the surface defects didn't show, so this was a pretty painless lesson to learn.

Not sure what I will do next time, hoping this is just a temporary glitch, not a permanent change. But I'll definitely call and ask before I make the drive next time.

Regards,

John

[Rick Fisher]

I am in the lumberyard business. We sell the Chinese Birch and Maple ply. We also stock Baltic Birch plywood from the Ukraine or Russia.

Here is the problem. The Cabinet shops buy from the same suppliers as the lumberyards. So volume buyers dont buy from Lumberyards. That means the lumberyard sells to General Contractors and Retail customers.

If we could sell lifts of $80.00 a sheet domestic birch plywood, we would love too. The problem is that people want to pay $39.99. (which is what we sell it for) ..

We buy it for $30.00 - $32.00 a sheet and make $8 - $10 on it.

The good stuff costs $65.00 and sells for $80.00 So we make $15.

The problem is that the good stuff doesnt sell. A lift could last a year.

[Craig Johnson]

IMHO 80.00 a sheet for any type of plywood is rediculous.

[Michael Schwartz]

Well I recently built some cabinets for my shop and decided to give the Chinese "Paint Grade 3/4 plywood" from the Borg a try. I was building the cabinets for myself to install in my shop so I really didn't care but I could never use this junk for anything I build for a customer.

I had to reject about 5 sheets off the top of the stack, since they were warped, delaminating, with damage to the veneer. I don't even know why they had these on out for sale, when they belong in the dumpster.

All of the sheets were pretty damp to the touch and had a high moisture content. All of the sheets had imperfections such as dents and gouges, and the veneer was delaminating on every piece on some spot or another.

The veneer was extremely thin and had stains in spots (looked like spalting) from probable exposure to mold/moisture.

The stuff is very splintery when cut and again the veneer is so thin and the adhesive so week it tended to delaminate on the edges right after cutting it.

This stuff is basically useless. The cabinets came out fine for what I designed them for, but you really can't use this stuff for anything anybody will ever look at. Painting the stuff isn't even an option because the amount of time you would spend making the junk smooth with filler would defeat any cost savings.

All in all I would not use this junk for anything I would sell to a client. The stuff is basically a defective product. I don't even see how there are cost savings with it based on the amount of extra time it would take to pick through the stuff, select the better sheets, and then the extra surface prep involved with it. This basically rules it out for anything anybody will look at it and if it is hidden there are cheaper materials that are better.

In my shop If cost is an issue use either MDF or Particle board and if plywood is needed for its screwholding I use exterior fir plywood. I have a good dust collection system so I can tolerate the extra dust from MDF for a product that is is uniform, flat, and is finish grade.

On a positive note my local BORG had a few skids of 3/4" birch ply from colombia forest products as well as some other formaldehyde free sheet goods.

[Larry Edgerton]

There are more cheapies than you would suspect.
A good example would be a particular tool manufacturer/seller that sells absolute, no doubt about it crap. Their name crops up on here from time to time. Whenever it gets bashed, there will always be the folks that say that their stuff is good and is the best tool they own.
I know several people that can afford quality stuff but are always buying junk because its cheaper.
If a large amount of the population were not cheapies, we would not be left without industry in this country.
It is frustrating for the people that make or sell quality goods because their market is limited.

Exactly. I do not often recommend tools anymore, because of this phenomenon. People have to believe that whatever they have is as good as one needs, validates their spending, but also promotes worse and worse selections of tools. Professional grade tools are disappearing at an alarming rate, and no new tools of professional quality are being developed.

I am hoarding some of my favorites so I can work the rest of my life with quality tools, but what are the generations coming up going to buy?

Also, the Borg promoting that you can do it yourself and save is doing much to drag down the perception of quality work. I am seeing more and more homeowner mistakes that are accepted as "The way it is supposed to be done" and so the general population expects work no better than what you would see in a modular. Guys like me are dinosaurs, I find fewer and fewer people that can see the difference, and have spent more time lately fixing hacks screwups than building.

Frusterating times for someone that gives a damn......

[Joel Earl]

Rick said it all IMO.
We might have a few willing to pay what it takes to get the real quality stuff here but I bet if we are honest we also will find most of us won't unless it's for something special.

So where's that leave us? We buy the stuff we get worked up about usually. Economics. Don't kid ourselves into thinking the stuff will ever be cheap again regardless of demand or lack of .... it all costs money to produce. Today that's bigger money than yesterday.

It's kinda funny and I'm in this camp too - we get all worked up about imported tools and the fact some are lousy quality. We spend a zillion bucks to get a PM, General, Sawstop or similar since it's local and usually better quality. Sometimes we spend 4-5x the cost of a decent and servicable tool from say Grizzly or >insert<.
Wood, plywood for crying out loud, we get worked into a tizzy about as it cost 2x more maybe for the best stuff and one would think the mills stole our first born kid.

I'm with you in unhappiness on it all but it takes an extra buck to get the best and we already all knew that.
Not trying to stir the emotions but it's just the dang truth.

BTW - my local yards don't carry much of the good stuff at all right now - they all say they can not sell it. It doesn't move --- period. End of story