The Trades in a New Economy and "Mike Rowe Works"

[David Fairfield]

I used to practice contract law. I quit. Now I make stuff for a living. Making stuff is way better.

Dave

[Kyle Kraft]

As a skilled tradesman myself holding 2 journeymans certificates, I am absolutely amazed at the number of people out there that can't fix anything......ANYTHING!!!

Living in Michigan, if my job wads up and goes away there isn't much left for me in this state. I have considered the fact stated above and mused about simply doing handyman stuff for those who can't. As long as there is "stuff" there will be a need for people who can fix "stuff".

I'm hoping that there will come a day when employers will pay top dollar for skilled tradesmen as there simply won't be anyone left in the workforce that can do such jobs. Unfortunately you have to have a manufacturing base for that and I really don't see that coming back in the near future.

[Brett Carlson]

I went to college, five years, two degrees one in Speech Comm. the other in Poli. Sci. (thinking lawyer at the time). I find that college gave me an opportunity to see what is out there, but not the means for survival. I now work as a designer/engineer in fire protection. It is a desk J.O.B., Just Over Broke. I have bought a home, but make the numbers work by renting out 80% of the rooms. I wanted to believe that a career path will bring me early retirement and wealth at a young age, well it isn't happening. I am more ambitious to start my own business, my goal is to start with laser engraving then working up to a full on Laser based CMC shop. I figure there will be a need to manufacture in this country again, rather than just be an economy based on service. Another note, my dad has owned his own business since I was born. I never thought this was a great way to live bc of all the hard work and time. A father of a good friend of mine in college worked for a top fortune 500 company. After the dust has settled, his father has watched his 401k dwindle down to nothing bc of greedy CEO's. Sure they are taking them to court, but to reclaim the retirement is next to impossible. Now I look at my dad's situation and maybe it isn't too bad owning a business after all, in the end, he will sell it with the land and have more in his retirement than any 401k program could have given him, with or without the crooks at the helm. I will think about college, but use my hands and my head to feed my family. And only invest in tangeable assets...Crooks can't take houses, but they can take numbers on a piece of paper...

[Mark Bolton]

And, as others have said, whether or not its arbitrary as applied in any specific instance, having a college degree will open doors to you that may otherwise not exist.

I, for one, will do everything in my power to convince my son to get a degree.

BTW, Mike Rowe has a degree from Towson State.

I couldnt agree more. It has traditionally, and will likely to continue to, open doors. I can speak to this directly in that my wife spent many years in the insurance industry. Could do all the jobs in her, and many of the surrounding departments, in her sleep. Yet she and her fellow co-workers were frequently passed over when posting out for promotions. These positions were most always lost to individuals who had never worked in the insurance industry, knew nothing about insurance, yet they held a degree in physical education, or any number of other degrees which provided them little to no benefit for the job they were hired. Yet they were hired, most always at a higher rate, over people who could do the job immediately, contribute to the department, and so on, because they were degreed.

This happened numerous times on a steady rotation. These people would come and go and the process would simply repeat itself over and over all the while the "steadies" in the departments would train these individuals, as well as perform these jobs directly while waiting for these positions to be filled with yet another degree.

I personally feel some of it is simply systemic. It is merely a continuation of a business model that may be needing to be tweaked in todays world. We now see offices with nap rooms, bikes, extremely casual environments. These are breaking the molds of the old stiff standard business model. I also feel some of it is opportunistic on the companies part in that they realize the extreme value of the "steady" and they are too valuable to lose. And why compensate them when you have them at an already low cost.

I also believe our system is partly based on academia's need to support itself. I myself come from an art background and this is perhaps the most self preservationist segment of academia I have ever seen. There are venues you cant even get into in the art world unless you have a degree from a certain institution. There are countless juried exhibitions that are pointless for anyone with out a degree from a prestigious institution to enter merely because, regardless of the merits of your work, if it isnt associated with a certain institution it will not be acknowledged, period. I have directly questioned (could say dared) why there wouldn't be some exhibitions where the artist (and their resume) weren't discovered until after the jury process. These suggestions are met with great opposition as heaven forbid they would find 2-3 uneducated people in the top 10. This protectionism is well known in the art world.

I for one have been clear that education to the highest level one can possibly achieve is absolutely the best goal to strive for. I however don't agree with kids treating college as a 4 year semi party and being rewarded for it in any way. Yet merely making it through does in fact provide them with substantial reward. They will enter most any job they get at a higher level than a non degreed individual. I dont think its any news that most individuals who would have the opportunity to go back to college at a later stage in life would try to suck the institution dry of every drop of knowledge they could glean in the time they had access to it not frittering their time away sleeping in and partying. I am not saying a bunch of kids should have that hootspa however they also don't deserve the arbitrary reward the degree provides. I say hooray for Google, Youtube, Myspace, and all the other life documenters we have out there now.

I think its time we began to judge each on their actual merits. Of course in a blind interview you are going to have to apply much weight to a degree over non. But there are many instances where it sets the holder at an advantage yet in actuality it means nothing more than paying your dues.

Mark

[Scott Shepherd]

Great post Josh! Loved it. All I ever wanted to do since I was about 14 was metalworking. Mostly A's in Geometry, Algebra, Technical Drawing, etc. Would have worked out well to go off and become an Engineer. I didn't want to. I wanted to cut metal, weld, turn, mill, braze, solder, whatever else I could do to metal. Got a job in a machine shop at 16 (legal age to work), got my Journeysman card as a Machinist when I was 19. I was always looked down upon by a few people in my circle of friends. After school, I continued to work and they continued to college.

I saw one of them about 4 years later in a restaurant. He said at the table and began to tell him how great he was doing since he got out of college. He bragged about getting his first job and making $18,000 a year. I didn't have the heart to tell him I made more than that in overtime, or that I bought my first house at 20 years old.

A surgeon may very well be worth the $500,000 he makes a year, but I'd like to see one of them operate without any instruments made by the machinist, or in a room with no lights because the electrician didn't come by. I think one of the worst things in the USA today is the disrespect for tradesmen and their pay. It shows when they signed off to ship manufacturing out of the country because it wasn't important enough.

[Pat Germain]

I find this thread kind of strange. Everyone seems excessively sensitive about being perceived as being condescending towards the trades, ...

The sensitivity comes from what we keep hearing from "experts". We keep hearing that *everyone* in America must get a college degree to compete in the world. That's bunk.

It's a given that attending a traditional, respected college or university and actually earning a marketable degree is a worthwhile endeavor which will pay off over the long term. Yet, not everyone has the opportunity or the desire to do so. And this model has been morphed and abused.

Many companies, as well as the government, started promoting people based on a sheepskin and nothing more. So, people started gaming the system. For-profit "Colleges" and "Universities" started sprouting up everywhere. People pay big bucks and get loans to attend these schools. Some get those promotions based on the degrees they bought.

Many others learned their degree isn't worth the paper it's printed on. They end up with debt and nothing to show for it. Had these people persued some kind of trade, they'd be in a much better position.

There are many variables in higher education. A lot of young people are pretty upset these days because they racked up $80,000 dollars in debt to attend a well respected school only to learn nobody is hiring Women's Studies majors, for example.

Certainly, there are many lackluster performers in the trades. And equally, a college degree isn't always an indicator of performance and potential.

[Mark Placek]

I never regretted the choice I made very early in my life to become a Union Carpenter.
Its been almost 30 years now and I still enjoy going to work every day.
All the lessons learned during my career are reflected in my artwork.

I wish more young people would have the drive to learn a trade, its a tough living but a good one.

[Dan Friedrichs]

There are many variables in higher education. A lot of young people are pretty upset these days because they racked up $80,000 dollars in debt to attend a well respected school only to learn nobody is hiring Women's Studies majors, for example.

+1. Well said, Pat.

While society may choose to compensate a degreed person over a tradesman, this is often anomalous - a good electrician arguably provides more benefit to society than most English/literature/poli-sci/etc majors do.
If you have college-aged kids, make sure they aren't just going to college for the experience. Make them come up with a plan of what they're going to study, where it's going to lead them in life, how they're going to pay for it, how the payback justifies the expense, etc.

IMHO (as a recent college grad currently in grad school), there are very few degrees worth paying >$50k for. I think accredited engineering, pharmacy, and architecture are the only ones that come immediately to mind.

[Eric DeSilva]

...a good electrician arguably provides more benefit to society than most English/literature/poli-sci/etc majors do.

I'd argue you have no idea. I'm not saying that a good electrician doesn't benefit society, I'm saying that you don't have a clue what an English/literature/poli-sci/etc major does. The point--as I stated before--of a liberal arts education is that it should be a degree in learning and how to learn. I'd argue that someone with a good liberal arts degree can do anything.

Yes, there are colleges that don't provide good educations. Yes, there are people attending college that are wasting the experience. But, no every electrician is "a good electrician" either. Face it, there are people who are going to party their way through trade school or abuse an apprenticeship as well.

IMHO (as a recent college grad currently in grad school), there are very few degrees worth paying >$50k for. I think accredited engineering, pharmacy, and architecture are the only ones that come immediately to mind.

Interesting that you picked three degrees that I would consider less-than-classic degrees in the sense that each is a glorified trade school education.

Right now, figuring an "average" non-degree'd individual probably earns $35K per year, my mathematics degree and post-grad degrees have been worth... oh, about a 150x what I paid for them. That is a pretty frickin' good investment.

[Jim Kountz]

Interesting thread to say the least. Coming from someone who has been a general contractor for the last 21 years, I can tell you that my kid will never swing a hammer for a living if I have anything to say about it. Its a tough row to hoe. Its either all up or all down and right now in my county its down. I could round up a top notch crew of highly skilled carpenters and woodworkers just by hanging out at the local gas station for an hour or two every morning. One of my good friends who is also a competitor laid off all but 12 of his crew down from over 30 employees. Competition is fierce, you have guys out here bidding jobs at $15/hr just to get the work and cutting the throat of the rest of us who feel we are worth alot more than that. Dealing with clueless customers day in and day out, wrestling with banks and inspectors, trying to cope with employess who beg for a job then dont show up. Its just not a nice business as far as Im concerned but its all Ive ever done so I wouldnt know what to do without it right now.
Im probably one of the slowest contractors out here and I say that with a bit of pride actually. Im not the guy who gets the job done as fast as humanly possible but rather the type who takes my time and puts alot of ME into the project. My name is on everything I do and Im the one who's going to get a call if something isnt right. So though I may move at a slower pace I will put my work up against anybodys and not have to back up to get my check. These shake and bake houses that are being built today are a slap in the face to a true craftsman, its sad but true.
So to and end I'll just say my kid will go to college if it kills both of us and hopefully have a better quality of life than his dear ol dad has had!!

[Jim Kountz]

AND!! Dont even get me started about workmans comp, health insurance, liability ins license fees, taxes and everything else you have to deal with being a contractor. Broken equipment, vehicle repairs.........man it just never stops.......

[Scott Shepherd]

I know a lot of tradesmen making $60K or more a year, and at the same time, know a lot of college grad's who can't find a job at $35K. The math may be there in many cases, but also in many cases, the math is not on your side.

4 years of college- $50,000 of debt to end up with a $35,000 a year job. Trade is paying you $60,000 a year (with overtime that you won't get working a salary job). That's $25,000 a year more.

5 years of $35,000 a year= $175,000 income minus the $50,000 debt= $125,000 for 5 years, or $25,000 a year.

5 years of $60,000 a year= $300,000 minus no debt or $60,000 per year.

$60,000 versus $25,000?

I completely understand that's not always the case and that I have simplified it a great deal just to show the math. For many people that might not be the case, but for most of those I know who went to college, that is exactly how they are living, except it's more like $80,000 in debt, not $50,000.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not bashing college or an education at all. I think education is extremely important. I just don't see the great $100K plus jobs at the back end of it for most people.

[Eric DeSilva]

in many cases, the math is not on your side. ... I completely understand that's not always the case and that I have simplified it a great deal just to show the math.

I understand your point, but those are exceptional cases. If you want to look at "on average," here's some real statistics from the Census Bureau:

Education Avg. Income Increase
Drop-out $20,873 —
High school $31,071 48.9%
College $56,788 82.8%
Advanced $82,320 45.0%

[you will have to imagine the table... the forum editor keeps trimming out the whitespace I put in to get it to line up right.]

According to another source, some other documented benefits of a college degree:

• longer life spans
• better access to health care
• better dietary and health practices
• greater economic stability and security
• more prestigious employment and greater job satisfaction
• less dependency on government assistance
• greater use of seat belts
• more continuing education
• greater Internet access
• greater attendance at live performances
• greater participation in leisure and artistic activities
• more book purchases
• higher voting rates
• greater knowledge of government
• greater community service and leadership
• more volunteer work
• more self-confidence
• and less criminal activity and incarceration.

http://www.quintcareers.com/college_...ion_value.html

Let me be very, very clear here. These are statistics. I am NOT saying that you cannot defy the odds, you can't be successful or that you don't read books or vote unless you go to college. I'm saying that I would encourage any young person to maximize their chance of success by going to college.

Belinda also has a good point. This whole discussion has defined success solely on the single axis of financial remuneration. I fully concur that banked green is not the only--or even perhaps best--definition of a successful life.

[Scott Shepherd]

I understand your point, but those are exceptional cases.

That's my issue with this all, those aren't exceptional cases. See if you can hire an electrician or find a tradesman. Chances are, no. They are working and have jobs and are probably working overtime.

Now, see if you can find someone with a college degree who can't find a job. I'd bet you money almost everyone who reads this post knows someone in that category. I'm not saying college is bad, or one shouldn't want their children to go to college, but I will say that I think there is a tremendous level of hype about the expectations for someone with a college degree. Want to find a bunch of people with college degrees? Look inside a call center. Why? Because they can't find all those great paying jobs that they expected when they left college.

Please, please, please don't misunderstand my intent or tone. I'm not bashing it, I'm simply stating that probably 90% or more of the people I know who have college degrees aren't earning the money that tradesmen are earning.

Also, those census numbers do not factor out tradesmen versus college, it lumps tradesmen with everyone else, so that's not a fair comparison. It puts tradesmen in the same category as someone in an inner city with little to know opportunity or education. Clearly not the same thing and shouldn't be put together to compare those things.

[Eric DeSilva]

That's my issue with this all, those aren't exceptional cases.

I still don't see it. If I search for job postings on the Washington Post site for "electrician," I get 21 listings (none of which are entry level--all want experienced electricians). If I run the same search on "college degree," I get over 737 listings. I'm sure some of both are chaff, but jeez...

And, according to payscale.com, a journeyman electrician with 1-4 years of experience has an average salary of $35K, and one with 20+ years averages slightly under $60K. The overall average seems to be more in the $48K range--still under the average college grad. So, your view of a tradesman making $60K entry level seems pretty exceptional too.

And, the electrical trade is credentialed, as opposed to some other trades, so I'm guessing electricians, plumbers, and certified welders probably make more than drywall hangers, painters, and bodywork guys. Same applies to different majors--I'm guessing petroleum engineering majors probably start higher on the pay scale than classics majors.

Yes, I know some college grads out of work. But, I also know a lot of guys in the trades that are hurting right now too. Anything having to do with residential work around here--whether its electrical, plumbing, or drywall--is pretty scary right now. No one is immune from a bad economy.