Table saw recommendation

[John Thompson]

The Sawstop is made by Gee-tech in Asia according to the owner of the Gee-tech plant which I was fortunate to meet at the International WW Show in Atlanta last fall. Could the General International be made by Gee-tech also? I can't say but Gee-tech produces for Saw-stop.. Sunhill and several other U.S. marketers...

Sarge..

[Neil Bosdet]

I was told that General Canada made the Saw Stop saw. Maybe the guy that told me this was full of s''t or had his info wrong or maybe this was the case in the earlier days of Saw Stop. This was told to me about 2.5 or 3.5 years ago.

[Tom Veatch]

...1) 3hp or 5hp? My current 2HP seems adequate - do I really need 5HP?

In my opinion, the extra money for 5HP over 3HP would be better spent on quality blades. If you were running a production shop with high production, power feeding, etc. perhaps my opinion might be different. Getting away from opinion to straight fact, with good, sharp blades on my 3HP cabinet saw, I've never bogged it down with any cuts I've ever made in appx. 7 years I've been running it, and have never felt a need from more power in the saw.

2) Regardless of HP, which would you go with? I've narrowed my choices to:

• Grizzly G0651
• Powermatic PM2000
• SawStop Cabinet Saw
• General 650

Based on a variety of factors, I'd like to limit my list to these saws.

Since I don't have personal first hand experience with any of those models, I'll not make any recommendations of one over the other except to say that the brands are all well known and I'd expect any one of them to meet the specifications you stated.

[Jim O'Dell]

It is very possible that General might make the fence for the SS. I keep looking at the SS fence and the one on my General and they are almost identical with the exception of the shape of the locking lever and the dual scale windows on the SS version. The second window can easily be added to the General T-Fence...btw General manufactured the Biese fence before Delta bought the name so I don't even consider it to be a clone but just a name change.

J.R.

I guess this is another HUH????
My understanding is that Biesemeyer systems were built by Biesemeyer in Arizona, even after being bought by Delta. Just in the last year and a half have they shut down and the manufacturing moved to Delta, I'm guessing in Tennessee. When I got one of the Biese fences from the Lowe's blowout, it was missing some parts. Biese in AZ is who sent them to me, the same month they were closing down.
Now did/does General build a Biese clone fence, probably under liscense from Biese/Delta? Yes, most likely so, but I'd bet all of them had the General name on them, not Biese.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not saying I have first hand knowledge of where every Biese fence has ever been made. But I've never heard General making them with the Biese name. Jim.

[John Ricci]

I guess this is another HUH????

Jim, I was told this story last summer by a General sales rep and he told me that General produced the fences under an agreement with Biesemeyer before the sale to Delta and was able to continue with a simple name change because at the time of the agreement there were no patents registered for the fence. I have found one reference to General here...http://stusshed.wordpress.com/2008/0...semeyer-fence/ and I'm looking to see if there are any more.

I found a few more references to the same Biese/General info...
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ead.php?t=8268 - post #5
http://toolseeker.com/WdWkMac/Tables...sp?var1=50-185 - 2nd review
http://www.epinions.com/review/Gener...nt_91326418564 - scroll about half way down the page for the fence info.
http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4652 - posts #8, #10
That's about all I'm going to stay up and search for tonight!

J.R.

[Kevin Groenke]

Brian, I voted SS because you indicated money wasn't a significant consideration. I that's true, buy the SS for it's added feature alone, you won't be disappointed. Changing the brake cartridge does take some getting used to. The first few times you change it, it will not be the most intuitive or effortless operation. Once you learn where the locating pins for the brake cartridge is it's a 15 sec operation. Try to remember to do it when there's no blade in the saw, it's tough to get the cartridge out with a blade in place. The 5hp isn't much more $, if you've get the necessary power, why not go for it. I agree that the claim the more power in a tablesaw can make it more dangerous is not very credible.

Were value a priority I would have gone for the Grizzly.

I'd wait AT LEAST 2 years before even considering the new Unisaw, when was the last time Delta announced/produced a new product that didn't have some issues (46-755 lathe, 17-959 drill press, 31-750 bench ROS, etc..)

I've read most everything I can find about the development of the SawStop and have attended events where Mr. Gass has told his story: this is the first heard I've heard any association with General. The Geetech association seems the most plausible explanation. As somebody mentioned, Geetech makes equipment for many companies.

The guard..well, I don't use one (for safety reasons), and can someone please explain how a riving knife adds one modecum of safety to a table saw? Watch the cut, feel the cut, listen to the cut, learn to interpret the kerf marks, if they are consistent errors, make small adjustments, ...

j milana,

Not using a guard (for safety reasons) is like not wearing a helmet (for safety reasons)...ridiculous. "I won't get into an accident if my visibility and perception aren't obstructed by a helmet." Of course there are those fortunate few who are insusceptible to mishap, hopefully you're one of them.


An effective blade guard (like SS's or an overhead) is nothing more than a physical barrier between flesh and blade. I cannot fathom a legitimate arguement for how using a guard (when appropriate) would make using a saw LESS safe (though I'll probably hear many). Obviously there are many ineffective guards out there and no guard can be used 100% of the time. An effective guard is easy to remove/move out of the way when necessary.

As to the value of a riving knife:
If there is tension your stock, a riving knife (like a splitter) will prevent the kerf from pinching onto a spinning blade thus reducing the likelihood of kickback. Since a riving knife raises and lowers with the blade it rarely needs to be removed, so it's ALWAYS behind the blade preventing pinching and guiding stock.

Since the top of a riving knife is below the top of the blade it can, unlike a splitter, be used when making non-through cuts. In a shop like ours where not all users are experienced and knowledgeable, a riving knife is a godsend. Even if a user is somewhat lazy about keeping the stock against the rip fence, the riving knife guides the stock and prevents it from getting into the back of the blade and kicking back.

A lot of polystyrene foam is cut on our saws. Since this stuff is so light and has a high coefficient of friction it tends to kickback fairly easily. Before getting saws with riving knifes we could count on frequent kickback of foam when it was being used on projects. Since we got saws with riving knifes, incidents of kickback have been all but eliminated.

All the best.
-kg

[Jim Dailey]

I bought my SawStop on a whim.... And without my wife's approval

Frankly I never thought I'd replace my Unisaw with anything other then maybe a Felder or other high-end slider.

I was always happy with the power of my 3 hp Unisaw. I literally on day one replaced the jetlock fence with a Excaliber based on a Fine Woodworking article back in the 80's. Plus I added a Excaliber overhead blade guard. I always liked the Excaliber fence but was going to replace it with a Incra once I moved into the new shop 'cause I like the Incra's repeteablity & accuracy (I use Incra positioners on my Unishaper, router table, drill press & mount them on my bands saws for rips). I never liked the Excaliber blade guard getting in my line of sight but did like the extra vacuum pickup at the blade. I also was going to add a Xactor slider to the Unisaw once I moved it into the new shop.

Now the rest of the story... A couple of weeks ago I moved the Uni into the new shop on a Thursday & the cabinet model 5 hp SawStop w/ the 52 Biesemeyer fence came on Craigs list on Saturday for $2,500.... I call on Monday morning knowing it "had to be gone..." So within 20 minutes of the call I'm heading north with the cash in hand & my 6 x 12 enclosed trailer in tow. That evening I tell the wife... By the following Saturday my much loved Unisaw is sold & for $1,300 net the SawStop is sitting in it's place. SWMBO is now "warming" to the idea of a safer saw... which is a big improvement from being HOT to the idea

The "new" SawStop was in excellent condition, virtually new. Although I had glanced at a few reviews that it was a better saw than the Uni I frankly didn't believe this... I felt the Uni was a "standard that all cabinet saws where measured against" & the new "stuff" just had new paint & a few bells & whistles... Thus I was actually surprised when I saw how much larger the table was compared to the Uni sitting right next to the SawStop. The 5 hp was a bonus but as I said I was always happy with the 3 hp on the Uni & I have a 20"MM for re-rips. I was fortunate that I pulled 10 gauge wire when I built the shop so I only had to change the receptacle. I flip the switch & watch the saw go thru the sequence of flashing lights on the start-up... and then I push the large red switch.... "Flashing RED Lights".... That where of a sequence NOT in the very well written & illustrated manual... "What the hell....!!!" I re-check the cartridge for proper spacing to the blade several times... Same Dam Red Lights..... 20 minutes of re-checking & moments of doubt as to "what the hell did I buy..." Then I noticed the door was open on the side of the cabinet..... You don't think.... Yup... another cranial rectum inversion.... I hate when that happens....

A few observations based on very limited shop time... The Biesemeyer may be an accurate fence but it is like pushing a concrete block across the table compared to the Excaliber that still floated on ball bearings after twenty plus years & locked solidly. The Excaliber with a light tap with the back of the hand would guild three feet across the saw, where the Biesemeyer would leave you with a sore hand. At first it thought I'd leave the Biesemeyer on for a while to try it. But even with a fancy paint job it is truly a very crude fence so I ordered & received the parts from Incra for the LS-TS fence to work with the SawStops larger table. And intend to add the Xactor slider to the Sawstop as well when I can get some shop time. One more observation is that the dust collection seems to be much better that the Unisaw.

The reality of 2009 is that all manufactures of cabinet saws are producing quality tools that will consistently produce good results... I for one just decided that if on a "given day" I had a cranial rectum inversion... I wanted the SawStop between me and a bad day.

jim

[joe milana]

As to the value of a riving knife:
If there is tension your stock, a riving knife (like a splitter) will prevent the kerf from pinching onto a spinning blade thus reducing the likelihood of kickback. Since a riving knife raises and lowers with the blade it rarely needs to be removed, so it's ALWAYS behind the blade preventing pinching and guiding stock.

Since the top of a riving knife is below the top of the blade it can be used when making non-through cuts. In a shop like ours where not all users are experienced and knowledgeable users, a riving knife is a godsend. Even if a user is somewhat lazy about keeping the stock against the rip fence, the riving knife guides the stock and prevents it from getting into the back of the blade and kicking back.

A lot of polystyrene foam is cut on our saws. Since this stuff is so light and has a high coefficient of friction it tends to kickback fairly easily. Before getting saws with riving knifes we could count on frequent kickback of pink foam when it was being used on projects. With riving knifes, incidents of kickback have been all but eliminated.

All the best.
-kg

I'm still not buyin' it regarding the riving knife. At least the ones I've seen and used are thinner than the saw kerf and flexible. They never touch the wood! If a kerf is closing up that fast, the back side of the blade is opening it back up and it will be beyond the riving knife before it comes together. That cut is gonna be smoked and maybe the blade too. Stop and go cut that piece on the bandsaw. If the kerf spreads, the board is forced away from the fence and laterally into the blade. That cut is smoked too, but the riving knife never touches the board. Maybe if these riving knives were exactly the width of the blade, and made of something besides stamped mild steel, they would be of benefit, but then precision alignment would be an issue and that adds another set of complications. If someone is "too lazy" to keep stock against the fence, maybe they shouldnt be using a table saw. No riving knife is going to "guide" the stock back up against the fence. Once the operator hears, feels, and smells (if no dust collector) a poorly guided cut, he should react instinctively and correct. I can't comment on styrene, maybe it reacts differently than wood. I respect your comments on safety, I just don't see it with a riving knife.

[jason lambert]

Nice write up Jim, and great price. I also just went through this it was time to get a real table saw for my shop. I found the sawstop basically a little better than the rest. The exta deep top was nice and the performance was great the 3hp has been more than enought and has plenty of power for a 3hp, you think it was 5hp. Anyhow I have to admit I caved mainly because it was a great saw as good if not better than the rest and the added safety features made it a no brainer. Pluse the safty features are convient like the quick change riving knife which put this saw a little above the rest in convience.

The only down side I have found is dust collection could be better but if you get the fidler guard and hook that up also it is pretty good. But some dust still gets in teh cabnet and there is only a 4" port on the back. I also went with the incra fence for accuarcy. Not good in production envirnments but for my house it is dead on.

[Larry Edgerton]

The Biesemeyer may be an accurate fence but it is like pushing a concrete block across the table compared to the Excaliber that still floated on ball bearings after twenty plus years & locked solidly. The Excaliber with a light tap with the back of the hand would guild three feet across the saw, where the Biesemeyer would leave you with a sore hand. At first it thought I'd leave the Biesemeyer on for a while to try it. But even with a fancy paint job it is truly a very crude fence so I ordered & received the parts from Incra for the LS-TS fence to work with the SawStops larger table.
jim

Jim

I have a couple of Biesmeyers. Just give the rail a light coat of Top Cote every month or so and it will slide along the rail just fine. Check to make sur the back of the fence is not running on the table. If the rail is too low and it touches it causes stiction. Put a spritz of Top cote on the two plastic glides on the outfeed side as well.

That being said, the excaliber is a very nice fence but they didn't make the long versions that are what I like. My Biesys are over 4' long with the extra on the outfeed side.

[Jim Dailey]

Jason "thanks for your comments" about the post.

Larry when I get back to the shop I'll take a look at the adjustment on the Biesemeyer. But after 20 years with the Excaliber I am spoiled. I am going to put the Incra on the saw for the accuracy & repeteablity knowing it can't be as smooth as the Excaliber.

Larry I remember in the late 70's or early 80's a bunch of us in the traders getting a call from a cabinet maker friend "bring a 12 pack... you got to see this...." We were all standing around looking at the Biesemeyer.... No more banging the fence into place by hitting it on both ends & the either using a combination square or a tape measure to make sure both ends of the fence where the same.... I chuckle when I see guys setting the fence's to a few thousand's with a dial indicator... We didn't have the time to do that for every cut

A trick I passed on to a woodworking magazine that got me a shinny new Festool C12 was a quick way to set a fence parrallel to the blade. Take two rare earth magnets the same thickness (check with a digital caliper... ya I know we've come a long way ) with the saw unpluged & the blade fully extended above the table, place a magnet on the forward & trailing edge about an 1 1/2" above the table. Then get the longest combo blade or steel rule you have... touch the edge of the rule to the magnets & it will levitate off the table parrallel to the blade. Slide your fence over to the rule & check for alignment or make your adjustments.

jim

[Neil Bosdet]

A trick I passed on to a woodworking magazine that got me a shinny new Festool C12 was a quick way to set a fence parrallel to the blade. Take two rare earth magnets the same thickness (check with a digital caliper... ya I know we've come a long way ) with the saw unpluged & the blade fully extended above the table, place a magnet on the forward & trailing edge about an 1 1/2" above the table. Then get the longest combo blade or steel rule you have... touch the edge of the rule to the magnets & it will levitate off the table parrallel to the blade. Slide your fence over to the rule & check for alignment or make your adjustments.

jim

Great suggestion.