Arm-R-Seal wipe on Low Angle view Not so good

[Steven Hans]

Hello everyone,
This is my first post about my first wood project. I built some nightstands and I am concerned with the top. The wood is maple and I followed the General Finish process of applying Seal-A-Cell (wait 24 hours) and then wipe on coats of Arm-R-Seal (satin) with a damp (damp with Arm-R-Seal) t-shirt folded. I applied very thin coats and sanded with gray synthetic steel wool lightly. For the last coat (6 total), I thinned with mineral spirits 25%. For good measure, I made a special paint booth for my wiping coats. Before I entered the booth, I spray myself with water as I am the greatest source of lint. It worked out wonderful. I did this because I don't trust myself to rub out the finish. I did not spend too much time wiping. I wipe across the grain, then look at a low angle to make sure I got the entire surface covered, then I gently wipe with the grain --done. 1 minute total. But for some reason I see some streaking only at very low angles of light looking into the sun. I have supplied some pictures. Other then this, I am very happy with my work. Am I expecting too much? Am I being too particular? Is this what is expected with wipe-on finish?
Figure 1 shows a top view with flash. Figure 4 shows my custom paint booth. I used it before for spraying water based generals with very good results. I am extremely pleased with the lack of lint and dust nibs (and bugs) with my wipe-on finish. Figure 9 shows the same table top at a low angle with no flash. Notice the streaking? It is kind of hard to capture on camera. Figure 2 shows a low angle view with the flash and you can see some of that streaking here.

[Prashun Patel]

The pix are not showing the streaks to me.

However, I ALWAYS get this problem when wiping satin finishes. Satin and semigloss finishes contain flatteners that really require constant mixing. A better man might be able to do it, but I've never been able to WIPE on a satin finish well.

You have a couple options:

1) You can use an aerosol SPRAY satin topcoat on top of yr existing finish. Use something that closely matches your existing topcoat's formulation.

2) You can try rubbing out the piece with paste wax and mineral spirit-lubed 4x0 steel wool. This will harmonize the sheen. If you don't have luck, you can remove the wax with spirits.

3) You can really mix - not shake, but stir - the finish and BRUSH on a coat. The streaks of the existing coat will disappear. This, however, will create a 'buildy' surface.

[Steven Hans]

Hi Shawn,
The streaks are very subtle but appear as slight milky wisps in the direction of the grain. I made sure to stir just before I dipped my t-shirt. I think I only needed to dip 3 times. Other then this, I am happy with the finish. I was kind of hoping for a spray look and I almost got it. I have read others mentioning that they get streak free results with the wipe-on. I would sure love to see the work at a low viewing angle to see if I am in the ball park.

[John Keeton]

Dirk, Shawn has a lot more info on finishing than do I, but I have had luck in the past with rubbing down a satin wipe on finish with brown paper. It seemed to level everything out very well.

I will say, however, that the finish you show appears to be a very good finish. I doubt you can expect a spray on look from a wipe on finish - unless you do a shellac French polish.

[Steven Hans]

I have some more pics so that you may be able to see the streaking. Image 013 is without flash and 002 is with flash. The image without flash shows the light streaking better.

[Steven Hans]

I have another panel with the same issue. I am going to spray that with my crappy $25 gun and compare with a side by side.

[John Keeton]

I do see the streaks, but they really don't look bad. Will be interesting to see the other panel.

[Steven Hans]

Hello Everyone,
My test results are in. First I should recap on what I wanted to accomplish. I enjoyed using the general finishes top coat. I am building 2 nightstands out of hard maple and maple plywood. I learned so much about wood working. The nightstand is finished in its unassembled form using blue painters tape to mask off glue areas. This worked quite well. What you see in the images are the nightstands assembled without glue --a mock up. I don't dare glue until 2 or 3 weeks so that I can let the finish dry hard. I will be clamping. While wipe on performed well, I could see some streaking when I look at the top at a 20 degree angle towards a light source. To be fair, I wanted a finish that didn't need any rubbing. However, perhaps with some rubbing the finish would be perfect? So what you see in the photos is a comparison of the tops where the lighter maple has the last coat sprayed on --I do a final wipe on the bottom round over profile around the edge. The darker top is wipe on only. When spraying, I used a cheap gun, placed the finish straight up without diluting and set the pressure of my air compresser to approximately 20psi - maybe less. Even so, you do get a cloud of finish and there is more waste than wiping. I need to get a HVLP gun.
To the figures: Figures 001 and 002 show the top view -nice satin sheen without that plastic look. Figure 003 gives you a look at the edges of the tops, which are both wipe-on. You have to really contort your body to see any flaws in the wipe-on finish on the edges. Figure 004 and 006 are shots taken at an approximate 20-30 degree angle looking towards the sunlight. The top on the left is the sprayed top and the one on the right is the wipe-on. Do you see the streaks better now. Interesting, the top on the left does diffuse the light more and it is almost as if the left is more matte-satin and the right is more satin-semi-gloss from this view. I have two more figures showing an extreme view, I will see if can post those in another reply.

So it would appear that both of these finishes need something to make them perfect. John has mentioned brown paper bag. Now would this be wrapped around a felt block and rubbed with moderate pressure along the grain? And does this do a good job of making the sheen consistant? I would prefer to be conservative with the rubbing. Also, generals website kind of recommends not to use wax as it is more maintance. However, if wax and steel wool will make the top perfect, I wouldn't rule it out.

[Steven Hans]

Figure 008 is an extreme close up of the spray finish. I am sure that you will be able to see some nibs, but look at the finish, it smooth to the touch but has interesting pattern -almost looks like texture. Mind you, I had the macro button on my camera and this is an extreme view. Figure 009 is an extreme close up of the wipe-on. It almost appears clearer from this view but you can see the streaks where the light hits.

[John Keeton]

Dirk, I think you got some drying on the sprayed finish before it hit the surface - thus the texture. Don't know if thinning a bit would help or not.

[Steven Hans]

John,
Would rubbing the finish with brown paper help? If so, should I wait a few weeks before attempting. I am not sure if I want to keep fiddling with the top too much. I would end up really messing things up.

[Corey Wilcox]

Dirk-

Given your meticulous finishing practices I would say you have nothing to fear when it comes to rubbing out either the sprayed on or wiped on finish. Rubbing it out should get rid of the "texture" and the streaking and it's honestly not that difficult if you take your time. Just don't push down hard or over-work any one particular area when you're doing it and you should get good results.

[Steven Hans]

Thanks Corey,
I also heard that if you don't want to finish the finish, to use a gel wipe-on wipe-off. I will try the gel satin by general's to see if that can even the sheen.

I did redo my kitchen table using mixol dye and shellac doing a french polish method. I wanted a satin sheen so I used gray synthetic steel wool and a piece of wood and went over the entire surface. Shellac was so nice to rub out and didn't take much effort.

[Prashun Patel]

Nice looking table. Shellac on a kitchen table, though? How's it holding up?

[Steven Hans]

It is not bad actually. Resists scratches pretty well and we use place mats now. One time though, I lit a candle and a hot amber, from a match head, landed on the table. I used a 2# cut and a small brush to build up the boo-boo. I waited three days and then used a razor with a burr (kind of like a scraper) and leveled the mark. A little alcohol and a final rub down with gray steel wool and it was done.

Changing subjects, John mentioned that perhaps I should thin out the varnish. I just got done watching a wood whisper video where he says that he doesn't like spraying polyurethane because it dries so slow. He says if he must spray, the final spray coat would be a 75% naptha to 25% poly mix. He prefers finishes that dry fast like lacquer, shellac, or water based stuff.

For the wipe on board on the right, I thought that I could use a gel topcoat. Following the instructions it says apply a liberal amount with clean rag and then wipe off evenly along the grain leaving enough for a "wet look". However, I watched a wood craft video of the product and the guy changes rags to wipe off and he uses the words buff out. I was almost treating this stuff like the wipe-on top coat. As a result I have wipe marks. I think I will do a light sand and hit it with a top coat of the Arm-R-Seal before trying this again. The nice thing about all this though is the coats are very think so I don't have to worry about having a plastic looking surface.