Newbie Seeking Panto Advice

[Mike Lempert]

[QUOTE=David Lavaneri;1123766]Mike,

The inscription on the Porsche spoke was hand engraved...
Hand engraving actually removes metal, whereas, diamond drag pantograph engraving "plows" through the metal. ...but getting the shallow, diamond drag image to hold a color-fill will be a "challenge".

Letter engraving is a secondary concern, and rotary engraving of letters is perfectly fine. Were you also saying the spoke guilloche was hand carved? I can get better detailed images if needed.

Wow well would rotary ingraving match the spoke work? The whole diamond drag thing is my own assessment of what I think I'm seeing. I imagined it having been done on a straight line engine turning machine, which I definitely can't afford.

Through one of my searches I came up with what looks like dirt cheap pantographs for sale here: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/ enter the word pantograph in the search field. Any thoughts on these machines? I need single phase.

Regards,
Mike L.

[Mark Winlund]

Mike,


Having only worked with a Gorton to rotary engrave molds for rubber inspection stamps, I can't speak to how well they perform as a diamond drag machine. Somehow, I don't think you'd be able to "feel" the engraving as much as you would with a New Hermes pantograph.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

You are right about that. Lots of weight and inertia on the bigger pantographs. The P2-3 I have was designed to produce molds in steel for injection molding machines. If you are careful, you can engrave number stamps with it.

Mark

[David Lavaneri]

Were you also saying the spoke guilloche was hand carved? I can get better detailed images if needed.

Wow well would rotary ingraving match the spoke work? The whole diamond drag thing is my own assessment of what I think I'm seeing. I imagined it having been done on a straight line engine turning machine, which I definitely can't afford.

Mike,

The spoke work definitely looks to be diamond drag work. Given the vintage of the steering wheels, I suspect the original templates were hand engraved into acetate (similar to flexible sheet stock for name badges etc.) to produce the patterns, (and for longer runs, brass) then used on a pantograph to do the actual engraving.

You can rotary engrave the same designs, but you won't get the "glisten" that a diamond graver would provide. You would, however, get enough to depth to color-fill if desired.

The need for a Gorton or other "industrial strength" machine would really depend on what you have a view to doing in the future. If you plan to do a lot of milling, it's a good way to go. For decorative work, as you've shown, I'd call it a bit of overkill.

I'm not familiar with the terminology. What's a "straight line" engine machine?

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Lempert]

"I'm not familiar with the terminology. What's a "straight line" engine machine?"

David: The straight line engine was essentially the same type technology as rose engine turning except that it didn't rotate, as implied by its name. The rose engine was used (and still is to a degree) for decorating fine watches and jewelry. It creates very intricate cut patterns. The straight line engine just moved up, down, and sideways, but also used pattern bars to create the designs. What was different from most other forms of engraving was that the bit stayed fixed and the item being engraved moved against it. Here is a video of a brocading machine, which is basically the same concept as rose turning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szbq6GevZkE

The straight line machine was typically manually driven by turning a wheel to move the plate against the cutter. The pattern bars caused the mechanism to zig or zag as it traveled. This type of fine, ornamental cut work was called guilloche.

Here are a couple of pictures of a straight line engine. The vertical plate is where the target piece would get mounted. This is what I'm thinking was used for the guilloche on the steering wheel spokes.
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/image/112108933

Mike L.

[David Lavaneri]

The straight line machine was typically manually driven by turning a wheel to move the plate against the cutter. The pattern bars caused the mechanism to zig or zag as it traveled. This type of fine, ornamental cut work was called guilloche.

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation and the link to the video. That was all news to me!
Fascinating contraption. Which I'm sure is what some people would have to say about pantographs.

Having seen the demo, I think you could produce the steering wheel spoke designs, much more quickly on a pantograph.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[David Lavaneri]

Lots of weight and inertia on the bigger pantographs.

Mark,

One aspect of the Gorton machines that I didn't like, is the fact that engraving is counterintuitive, meaning, if you trace a circle template clockwise, the machine engraves the item in a counter-clockwise direction.

Compared to the New Hermes same-direction engraving, the Gorton took some getting used to. Can't say I ever did.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mark Winlund]

Mark,

One aspect of the Gorton machines that I didn't like, is the fact that engraving is counterintuitive, meaning, if you trace a circle template clockwise, the machine engraves the item in a counter-clockwise direction.

Compared to the New Hermes same-direction engraving, the Gorton took some getting used to. Can't say I ever did.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

Hi David... I only have experience with the large P2-3. It does not engrave in reverse.... the cutter follows the movement of the stylus, but at a reduced ratio of 2 to 1 up to 8 to 1. Perhaps some of the smaller machines worked as you described.

In the 70's, I used a New Hermes IRX-K to engrave in reverse by mounting the copy board up side down and reversing the stylus in it's holder. I used the method to do my first sub surface reverse engraving on acrylic for elevator control panels. The panels were longer lasting because of the sub surface engraving.

Mark

[Mike Lempert]

David: Yes, I agree, and good thing too as I can't come close to affording one of those old straight line machines. I see prices around $20k for the better machines. It seems most were made prior to, or around the time of the 1900 mark. I think the machines themselves are pieces of art.

I'd like to share some of my great grandfather's work, which I think you might find interesting. He did some of the engraving for our country's first paper currency around the time of the civil war. I have several plates that he engraved and have photographed them. Of course all work was done by hand back then. All the plates are covered with a coat of wax, but the work can still be seen, although maybe not as crisply.
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/archibald

[David Lavaneri]

Hi David... I only have experience with the large P2-3. It does not engrave in reverse.... the cutter follows the movement of the stylus, but at a reduced ratio of 2 to 1 up to 8 to 1. Perhaps some of the smaller machines worked as you described.

In the 70's, I used a New Hermes IRX-K to engrave in reverse by mounting the copy board up side down and reversing the stylus in it's holder. I used the method to do my first sub surface reverse engraving on acrylic for elevator control panels. The panels were longer lasting because of the sub surface engraving.

Mark

Mark,

Could have been that I was using a small Gorton, but small still meant it would take 4 men and a boy to move it.

Very creative, out of the box idea for the reverse-engraving! I never claimed to be the only "Stunt Engraver".

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[David Lavaneri]

Mike,

Sometimes, when asked what I do for a living and people find out I'm an engraver, a common response is, "So, you can engrave plates that are used to print money?"

I laugh and say, "No. I admire the skill it takes to engrave that type of work, but I'm nowhere near that caliber and do a completely different type of engraving."

Your grandfather did extremely impressive work. Extremely!

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Lempert]

Thank you, David. I'm proud of that heritage. I often think that my attention to detail and interest in such precision type work is something I've inherited. I'm a woodworker, but keep getting drawn to engraving.

Great grandad's children were the last to do the work as a career. There were three boys that worked in the field. I suspect they saw the technology changing to the point where they were becoming obsolete. They moved into cerotypes at some point.

Once I was viewing old pictures on a website and came across one of the Wall Street area of NYC back around 1909. There was a building in the distance where one of the floors had a sign "Frank McLees and Bros.", which was the sons' business. It was fun to see it there.

There was some incredible talent back when g'grandad was doing his work. He was very close to the Spencer family, a famous name of the time for writing style. Spencerian Script was very popular and penmenship was another art and career for many people. I have a large charcoal portrait of g'grandad which was done by Lyman P. Spencer; it is unbelieveably good. Virtually no one that has seen it has ever detected that it is a charcoal; they always think it's a photograph.

Well, I'm still struggling with my decision to go panto or not. I'm drawn to the larger machine that will allow me to grow into more.

Regards,
Mike L.

[David Lavaneri]

Well, I'm still struggling with my decision to go panto or not. I'm drawn to the larger machine that will allow me to grow into more.

Mike,

I'm still wondering what you plan to "grow into". A New Hermes pantograph will give you much more "direct contact" and "feeling of control" with your work.
It's hard to explain, unless you've sat down and tried both pieces of equipment.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Lempert]

Can anyone comment on this machine? On Ebay 120413576306
I know it won't stay at that price, and shipping alone is over $600 Good grief!!!

Mike L.

[Mark Winlund]

Rent yourself a U-haul and go get it. It's not that heavy. It looks like the ratios are 1:1 to 6:1 from the description.

Mark

[Mike Lempert]

Rent yourself a U-haul and go get it. It's not that heavy. It looks like the ratios are 1:1 to 6:1 from the description.

Mark

Arghhhh. Texas. Actually, after fuel costs, U-Haul rental, hotel, and lost time, I doubt there's much to gain. I guess that's why they charge what they do for shipping. Mark- what do you think of the machine? The Taylor Hobson I was looking at could be had for $1250, delivered. Sure wish I could find one here in SC.