Tenon Saw Technique - some help requested

[Doug Shannon]

So after using Japanese saws with some success, I felt I should learn to work in the English indigenous style. Following advice here and elsewhere I bought the Veritas dovetail and a Lie Nielsen crosscut carcass saw, and I can only describe them as a revelation. Fantastic quality of cut, easy tracking, everything an English saw should be.

So buoyed up by that I invested in a Lie Nielsen 12" rip tenon saw, and frankly, I'm not feeling the love. Hard to start, snatchy and shuddery in the cut in both English oak and American black walnut, and hard to track the knife line. The saw is dead straight and sharp, and I'm questioning my technique.

I admit I'm not used to low TPI saws, and I'm wondering if I'm applying too much downward pressure subconciously. I'm trying to hold the saw as gently as possible but I feel like i have to use a lot of forward pressure to push the saw through the cut.

It may be that I'm being a bit ambitious trying to learn using walnut, but our local oak is easy to work so I'm surprised by that.

So any pointers and tips on techniques much appreciated.

[Casey Gooding]

Practice makes perfect. The more you use it, the more used to it you will become.

[Martin Shupe]

For a long, long time, I used to start my saws with a pull, to make a notch.

Mike Wenzloff showed me the error of my ways.

You must, must, push the saw to start a smooth cut.

Not sure if you are making this mistake, but I did for a long time.

[Doug Shannon]

I have indeed been pulling the saw to start the kerf. I'll give that a try, I'm assuming that you use the lightest possible pressure or the saw just skips across the end grain?

[Richard Dooling]

So what is the problem starting on the pull stroke? Does it cant the fibers away from the direction of the cut stroke and make it that much harder to get the saw going in the right direction?

I've also been starting on the pull stroke and have also had trouble getting that first smooth push stroke.

.

[Richard Magbanua]

I'll be following this thread since I'm relatively new to sawing tenons by hand too.
I have heard that new saws may need a "breaking-in" period. Also, have you tried tilting your piece away from you in the vice instead of holding it straight up and down?
I got a LN 10ppi rip carcass saw a few months ago. I did learn to hold it lightly to start the cut (Chris Schwarz says to hold it like a bird in the hand) and let the saw do the work. I'm pretty good at starting cuts now. Besides starting the cut I found scribbling wax on the saw plate makes it a bit easier to finish up.

Try taking pictures of your technique or even post a video so we can see how you're doing it. I wish more experienced woodworkers would post videos of their techniques. That would be a big help.

[lowell holmes]

Make a conscious effort to lift the saw leaving very little downward pressure when starting the cut. Sometimes I imagine I'm sawing air and gently let the saw settle into the cut. I will hold my forefinger and thumbnail on the side of the cut to start it. I always start with a forward stoke. I have both the rip and crosscut saws, but as often as not, I will crosscut with the ripsaw.

Try starting on the pull stroke and lift the saw as you start the forward stroke. It will come to you .

[Doug Shannon]

Make a conscious effort to lift the saw leaving very little downward pressure when starting the cut. Sometimes I imagine I'm sawing air and gently let the saw settle into the cut. I will hold my forefinger and thumbnail on the side of the cut to start it. I always start with a forward stoke. I have both the rip and crosscut saws, but as often as not, I will crosscut with the ripsaw.

Try starting on the pull stroke and lift the saw as you start the forward stroke. It will come to you .

Hi Lowell, thanks for your comments. So are you suggesting that you use the weight of the saw on the initial pull, and lighten off on the push strokes? Also, what's your opinion on having the saw cutting flat on the workpiece versus angling the workpiece and therefore doing an angled cut?

I find sawing flat to the piece to work just fine with the dovetail and crosscut saw, but not with the tenon. I think one of the issues I'm suffering with is how easily the Veritas dovetail saw rips compared to the LN tenon.

[Danny Thompson]

In the Spring 2008 issue of Woodworking, Chris Schwarz published an article about backsaw technique. 10 rules and 3 tips. In the article, he says that it is a mistake to start on the pull stroke because it creates a V that crosses the cut line.

Here is a link to an early version of the article; it contains 9 of the rules:

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com...ow+To+Saw.aspx

The full article includes more commentary and helpful pix. Digital download of the issue:
http://www.fwmagazines.com/product/9...rking-magazine

CD of all the 2008 content:
http://www.woodworkersbookshop.com/product/1363/38

[lowell holmes]

I'm not at my bench, but the LN saw can be hard to start the cut. It is so sharp,that when you start forward with the stroke it grabs the wood fiber and when it does that, lighten up on the saw pressure, continuing the cut.
I agree with Richard Maganua's comment about a saw being broken in. After the new sharpness dulls a bit, the saw will be easier to start.

As Danny Thompson said, Chris Schwarz's article is outstanding. I go back and read it occaisionally.

[David Keller NC]

"I find sawing flat to the piece to work just fine with the dovetail and crosscut saw, but not with the tenon. I think one of the issues I'm suffering with is how easily the Veritas dovetail saw rips compared to the LN tenon."

Doug - You should be aware that all rip-filings are not created equal. This is a bit nuanced, but for softwood cutting, one generally has no fleam, and a near zero degree rake - perhaps 5 degrees, and a lot of set, perhaps 1/2 of the plate width.

That sort of saw will be a nightmare to cut hard woods with - it will jump, shake, and shudder on the push stroke.

For hard wood, one generally has a good bit of fleam, perhaps 5 degrees or so, the rake is much more relaxed, perhaps as much as 20 degrees, and the set is much smaller. What this does is make the saw much more stable in the cut, but at the cost of greatly slowing it down.

The lie-nielsen filing on the tenon saw is a compromise between the hard and soft wood set/fleam/rake, and is quite aggressive (i.e., it leans more toward the softer wood filing). When it's fresh, it will indeed be jumpy. After sawing a bit in a harder wood, the saw dulls slightly and settles down.

Regarding technique, I found that one does not want to bear down on the saw at all, nor really push it into the cut. Instead, all of the downward pressure should be the saw's weight, unassisted by yours. The push stroke should be only in the direction of cut, with no downwards component.

For starting the saw, one should, in my opinion, pinch the work between the thumb and forefinger of your left hand, set the sawplate against the fleshy part of your left hand's thumb and forefinger, and give the saw a couple of gentle pushes across the workpiece. After 2 to 3 of these, a slight kerf will be established all the way across, at which point you can start sawing with the full length of the saw.

If you'd rather start at one corner and work against two lines, you will probably need to produce a starter kerf with a bench chisel inserted in the knife line, bevel out, and give it a light tap. That will give you a "V" notch to start the saw in. This technique, by the way, is covered in Chris Schwarz' Woodworking Magazine article "How to Saw", which in turn was derived from Charles Hayward's book "Carpentry for Beginners" and "Woodwork Joints".

The way I found out about Lie-Nielsen's filing versus others was comparing my L-N 12" tenon saw against a 12" Drabble and Sanderson antique from the early 20th century. The filing on the D&S saw is much more towards the hard wood set-up, and is considerably smoother than the L-N, but it's also far slower. It's a real drag to use this saw to cut tenons out of EWP (Eastern White Pine) and Poplar - the Lie-Nielsen cuts these two woods like a dream. Both have the same number of teeth per inch.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Here's a technique allowing one to consistently lighten the saw's downward pressure. When you push the saw forward, apply your hand pressure to the lower part of the handle. It's more vertical than the upper part, so more force goes forward, and less force goes down.

[Don McConnell]

Martin Shupe wrote (in part):

"You must, must, push the saw to start a smooth cut."
"Not sure if you are making this mistake, but I did for a long time."

In the face of such a dogmatic statement, I'd be interested in a cogent and convincing explanation why one "must, must" initially push the saw to start a cut.

Holtzapffel, as early as 1846, was advocating just the opposite, and it is my impression that starting a saw cut by drawing it backward a short stroke, or two, is a long-standing trade practice. That, alone, doesn't mean one "must" do this, either, but does indicate that a lot of people (who earned their livings using these tools) have been "making this mistake" for a long time.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[lowell holmes]

I think one of the issues I'm suffering with is how easily the Veritas dovetail saw rips compared to the LN tenon.[/QUOTE]

I would attribute that to some more sneaky stuff by Robin Lee.

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Been absent from the forums for family reasons. But my ears were burning...

One can start a saw pulling or pushing. However, if one applies much downward pressure when drawing the saw back to obstensibly establish a kerf, it can cause issues when the forward stroke is begun.

If you look at the floor of the beginning kerf under this circumstance, you will often see ripples (like washboards) that correspond to the toothing on the saw. Heck, one can often hear them being created. Chances are the tooth tips will be sitting in them when the forward stroke is begun. One is then attempting to push the saw through more wood depth than can often be smoothly accomplished.

Often the sawyer then pushes harder, which, due to the hang of the saw, can apply even more downward force than can/should be used. Sawing shouldn't be work when using a sharp saw. Nor should it frustrate the sawyer.

This issue of the ripples applies more to (1) sharp, aggressively-filed saws and/or, (2) coarser toothings and/or, (3) when sawing through the thickness of a board (such as for DTs) . Once the PPI rises, it is less an issue. Same with a more relaxed rake on a coarser saw, or one that is duller than it ought to be.

A smooth stroke forward while holding some of the weight of the saw off the wood works wonderfully. I use this same approach when demonstrating sawing DTs using a 26" 5 ppi rip hand saw on a 3/4" thick board.

Take care, Mike
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