Tenon Saw Technique - some help requested

[Doug Shannon]

Thanks all for your comments and help. This evening I went out to the shop and practiced some more, in both oak and walnut. One thing that I am noticing is that the initial smoothness seems to be quite dependent on whether I'm cutting along the annular rings or across them, with the initial strokes being much smoother when cutting across. This would appear to tie in very much to what David said about the set and file on the LN.

Even after a small amount of use I'm actually finding the saw much smoother, I assume as the initial sharpness is dulling. I think in the long term the challenge I'll face is learning to track the saw to the line accurately, but there are many tips and much information in this thread so far.

[Don McConnell]

Mike et al,

You wrote, in part:

"One can start a saw pulling or pushing. However, if one applies much downward pressure when drawing the saw back to obstensibly establish a kerf, it can cause issues when the forward stroke is begun."

In addition to the subtly dismissive tone of the term "ostensibly establish a kerf," it seems to me that you are further stacking the deck by assuming the application of "much downward pressure" when drawing the saw back. Well, of course, it doesn't work very well when one uses poor technique.

A very light touch, sometimes including lifting part of the weight of the saw, will usually limit the production of ripples in the kerf when drawing the saw back. If the saw seems to want to "catch" on the first forward stroke, another light backward stroke will usually smooth things out. And the small flat/kerf which is established allows more teeth to come into contact with the material, providing for a smooth and controlled first forward stroke.

Actually, differing materials, situations and saws will occasionally call for differing approaches, so I think people should be prepared to experiment to find what works best for them in any given situation. Which is why I feel it does them a disservice to pejoratively dismiss one possible approach - especially one which has been used by generations of woodworkers.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Don, I wasn't being dismissive of anyone or anything. Nor categorizing any technique, anyone's advice nor any person in a pejorative manner.

If I wish to be dismissive or bad mannered, there isn't any subtlety involved.

Mike

[Joe Hardesty]

Which is why I feel it does them a disservice to pejoratively dismiss one possible approach - especially one which has been used by generations of woodworkers.

I am all for learning from traditional methods and I grew up being taught to always start on a pull stroke, but that doesn't mean it's correct in all situations, and especially not in the context of this thread which is tenon saws.

Using current backsaws, specifically LN saws as mentioned by the OP, it is my experience that starting on a push stroke will provide superior results in virtually any wood and any cutting configuration.

Nothing pejorative about it; it's called progress.

[Richard Dooling]

So would it make sense to put a little wear on the first inch of blade - sort of a poor man's progressive pitch?

[David Keller NC]

"So would it make sense to put a little wear on the first inch of blade - sort of a poor man's progressive pitch?"

Richard, I wouldn't do that if I were you. If you're unafraid to modify your saw (some of us, including me, aren't going to touch a L-N until it needs overall sharpening - they go for too much money on e-bay. Antiques are cheaper to experiment with), I'd suggest modifying the rake on the teeth on the last couple of inches of the saw.

That's a lot easier than changing the pitch, which, in my opinion would need a complete re-toothing job to get the smaller/larger teeth to line up properly.

You can change the rake pretty easily, though - you just need a slim taper 6" file (or a double slim 5" - they'll all work, just some more optimally than others). One just puts pressure on the front of the tooth being filed with the file held at a more relaxed rake angle - you will see a small bevel form at the top of the teeth being filed. You can carry this bevel all the way down the tooth if you choose, but it's not necessary. Just a small more relaxed bevel about 1/4th of the way down the tooth will make the saw easier to start.

[Glen Evans]

This is probably an obvious point--but one problem I've had in cutting tenons is having the stock too high in the vise. Even a couple inches higher seems to throw me off. (I guess its also possible that my bench is too high--but I'm not going to go down that road!)

Glen

[Mark Roderick]

You know, I've always started on the pull stroke because it seemed easier, but last night I cut some dovetails starting with the push stroke based on this thread, and it actually works better! It's counter-intuitive to me, but who cares?

Once again, this is a terrific forum.

[Joe Close]

Mark, I sent you a PM.

[Adam Cherubini]

I find it helpful to keep in mind that a saw is a not a knife. The cut happens pushing the saw forward, not forcing it down.

My advice is to try holding the saw with a muc much lighter grip. In fact, I would try just pinching the handle between your thumb and fore fingers. I think what this will teach you is that your saw needs very little help from you (which is good news).

As far as drawing the saw back or forth, I couldn't tell you what I do. I just don't know. What Mike says about the teeth denting the wood is certainly true. I've done that. My feeling is either way works and neither matters. The problem you are having is probably coming from holding the saw too tightly and not using a light touch. It's probably a little like learned to drive a car with a manual clutch. If you think too much about it, it's herky jerky. Keep working, use a light touch and you'll be Mario Andretti in no time.

Adam

[Robert Trotter]

I think this thread might be approaching the end of discussion but I thought I might ask a question about the tpi for tennon saws and the relation to speed and starting. Sorry for the deviation.

Is there a real difference in feel, starting etc between say 10tpi and 11 tpi? or even 12 tpi?

There seem to be tennon saws at 10tpi and then saws seem to jump to dovetail saws at 15 tpi or higher. Is there a reason for the big jump? Is there a difference in working with the wood? is a tpi somewhere in between 10 and 15 worth looking at?

I am asking as I need a tennon saw and a dovetail saw and I would be looking at building medium (hall tables, kid's desks, bedside tables) and smaller stuff (lamps, drawers and boxes etc. small side tables) I won't be making any larger closets or dinning tables etc.

Also, it was mentioned about hardwood and softwood saws. Any softwood work I think I'd stick with my Japanese saws. So I'd be looking at the western saws for hardwoods. Is there a difference in saw teeth set up say for sawing maple, ash, walnut, black walnut or tropicals like urin (similar hardness and desity to jarah I think)? I have some recycled Urin decking that I have been using and it is hard on my Japanese saws. But in the future I would like to try using some of the other woods mentioned.

Anyway, any comment would be helpful to me and hopefully to others.

Rob

[David Keller NC]

"There seem to be tennon saws at 10tpi and then saws seem to jump to dovetail saws at 15 tpi or higher. Is there a reason for the big jump? Is there a difference in working with the wood? is a tpi somewhere in between 10 and 15 worth looking at?

Rob - Some of this has to do with the needs of a man making a living entirely with hand tools in days gone by. If you look at old furniture (and/or read Adam's column in Pop Woodworking), you find that the jobs were done at breakneck speed, and were done very roughly when the work wouldn't show. If you think about it, no one will see either the cheeks or the edge cheeks of a tenon, so it doesn't matter whether it's rough - just that you can cut them as fast as possible. And I can personally verify that a 10 tpi saw, all other things being equal, will cut the same distance with quite a few less strokes than a 15 tpi saw.

Dovetails, though, are not the same as tenons in that the end of the cut is exposed when the dovetails are assembled. Two other factors are the thickness of the stock and the precision required for an off-the-saw fit. If you put a really coarse saw to a thin piece of wood (such as would be used for a drawer side), there's a danger of splitting it. The rough teeth also vibrate the board, which makes the saw hard to control. In this instance, a finer toothed saw is easier to use. Also, you must be pretty close to dead-on with a set of 4 dovetails, because errors are multiplied across the large cut surface area, and even one surface that's mis-tracked with the saw will require paring.

The old guys didn't like paring - it was slow. While my experience isn't that extensive in this regard, every drawer dovetail joint I've ever seen when taken apart on a piece of furniture from the age of handwork shows no evidence of having been pared.

[Alan DuBoff]

In addition to the subtly dismissive tone of the term "ostensibly establish a kerf," it seems to me that you are further stacking the deck by assuming the application of "much downward pressure" when drawing the saw back. Well, of course, it doesn't work very well when one uses poor technique.

Don,

Poor technique is a perfect reference, since pulling a saw that was filed to cut on the push is just that. The saw was not designed or intended to pull, so why use poor technique in the first place?

I completely agree with what Mike said, and consider it poor technique to use a saw to create an artificial kerf. In considering that a rip tooth (this applied to crosscut teeth as well) is akin to a chisel, the intention was to cut with the sharp edge. But by drawing the saw backwards, is using the tooth in the opposite direction and the angle makes it clunky at best. In a way, it is the epitome of poor technique. Relying on one's tools for such results speaks for itself.

Actually, differing materials, situations and saws will occasionally call for differing approaches, so I think people should be prepared to experiment to find what works best for them in any given situation. Which is why I feel it does them a disservice to pejoratively dismiss one possible approach - especially one which has been used by generations of woodworkers.

Well, that is certainly something to consider, but it still doesn't make using poor technique as being acceptable. Doing so is a poor use of the tool at best.

This is akin to sawing away from the line with the intention of chiseling cleanly to the line, and I would bet that people that use their saws to pull an artificial kerf are more likely to do that as well. This is another example of poor technique. Use your saw to cut to the line you intend, that is what they were intended to do.

OTOH, considering that most people are afraid to sharpen their own handsaw, it's no surprise there are so many that are willing to use them for a task that they were not intended for, creating an artificial kerf.