Krenov blades & Non-Krenov planes

[Jay Kir]

I've been toying with the idea of making my own planes for a while, and have considered the Hock blades for Krenov planes. From the pictures I've seen of this style of plane, (and of the classic 18th & 19th century style of wood plane), it seems that the front of the plane is hard to grasp, given the squarish sides and toe. Also, the jack and jointer wooden planes, at least in the American style, are held with the left hand facing backwards! It seems awkward. Does softening the sides help much? Has anyone made a non-Krenov plane or at least a variation of that with Hock irons? Can you point me to a picture of one? How about the wedges: Has anyone used a different type of wedge from the Krenov wedge? What would be the advantages of one over another? Someone is offering a group of these blades on ebay now. Are they common in the second-hand market? Your help would be appreciated.

[Bob Strawn]

Unless you are going exotic, planes don't use a lot of wood. They are also much easier to make than folk seem to think. Use the same blade, make several planes, decide what you prefer.

That said, a krenov is sweet, a horned German style is not pretty, but works amazingly. A Japanese style plane works great, and so does a Taiwanese.

Bob

[David Keller NC]

Jay - While an english-style plane may look awkward in pictures, it's not in practice. In fact, it's pretty natural. The stock isn't hard to grip - you're mostly pushing down with the left hand, while the right hand pushes forward, so there really isn't any force to dislodge your left hand.

That said, I suspect that the Hock Krenov-style blades may not work in a tradtional, British style design - they're too short. Unless you make the stock pretty thin, there's not all that much remaining above the plane to fit with a tradtional style wedge (generally speaking, you want the iron above the wedge so that you can adjust it with hammer taps).

From the standpoint of making one of these, the procedure for a Krenov plane is considerably different than a tradtional British or European plane. Finck's book "Making and Mastering Wooden Planes" gives a lengthy, detailed description of how to make a Krenov-style plane. For a British style traditional wooden plane, one would want to pick up a copy of John Whelan's book "Making Wooden Planes".

[george wilson]

I really can't see the complications of making a Krenov plane. They are about the simplest plane out there.

I prefer the old coffin shaped smooth plane myself.The rounded over shape of the Krenovs seems to be harder to keep a grip on. Just my opinion.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Basically established designs of hand planes of today is the result of centuries of trial and error. While individuals may prefer one design over another, most of established designs are practical and they work fine, the rest is up to the user to get used to it.

It's one of those things you should just do it and figure out. Like others say, Krenov style plane is the simplest plane to make. Rather than trying to figure out in the head, you should make a couple and then figure out what you like and don't like, and take it from there. If you got the material for it, you can put one together in a few hours (including glue up time) or make two at the same time as well.

Besides, if you are building planes to use it, it doesn't have to look like other planes. If you think square shape of wooden plane that look awkward to hold, no one will tell you not to attach a knob and handle. There is nothing wrong with that. Spend an afternoon making a couple of them.

[Glen Evans]

I totally agree with the "just do it" sentiment. Two years ago for a Christmas stocking stuffer, I gave each of my kids, (oldest one 12) a block of maple and a blade, (the Lee Valley replacement blades for their Hong Kong style planes). It took them about 4 hours each to do the glue up style and then a couple of hours to shape--they had a blast and my skill in plane making went way up!

Glen

[Jay Kir]

Thank you for the replies. I guess I am a perfectionist and want to do it right the first time. Not good of course. I also want to take advantage of the current ebay listing, if I am going to go full steam ahead, no turning back, that sort of thing.

I have seen Finck's book (I wish he had given a basic diagram of the whole thing to begin with, instead of going piecemeal. Also he cuts off the instructions too much with 5-page side remarks such as bansaw usage and such, which should have been left for an appendix). He seems to use only the Krenov method, and relies on a drill press to get the wedge pin to have co-axial tenons (that go into the cheeks). Is there a way to do this without a drill press? That's why I asked about other forms of wedging. Maybe a hybrid of some sort. An expired ebay listing shows a plane made using Woodsmith plans:


It seems to have no provision to hold the blade!
I am feeling embarrassed already, after seeing what Glen's kids were able to do .....

Jay

p.s. I hope the uploading went well. If not, I'll try to post the image again)

[David Keller NC]

Well, that's certainly one of the oddest beasts I've seen in a while. My thought is that the pressure from planing would eventually work loose the screw holes and the front and back infill wouldn't stay in one plane.

While there are some critical things to get right when making a plane, it definitely isn't rocket science. If you've got some reasonable skill with a chisel and the proper tools, like planemaker's floats if you're going to make a non-laminated design, you should be good to go. You can, by the way, buy the proper tapered long iron to make a British-design wooden smoother - http://dlbarrettandsons.com/ (you need the taper, by the way - it doesn't affect the plane's performance, but allows you to tap the iron out of the mouth of the plane in case you get the wedge stuck).

As an aside, I thought I was pretty good with hand tools, until a friend lent me a bunch of videos on making Kentucky Long Rifles last weekend. Watching Wallace Gussler make an ornate rifle from scraps of brass, charcoal, and some wrought iron is a humbling experience.

[Bob Strawn]

This has a screw that comes from a hole beneath the plane to draw down the chip breaker. It is actually one of the most stable designs ever. The kit is very nice, and very versitile. I have purchased quite a few of these kits and mangled them into some delightful planes.

Here are a few odd planes that this can make,
http://toolmakingart.com/2009/02/22/...-rabbet-plane/
http://toolmakingart.com/2008/05/15/a-krenov-plane/

Here is a rather large mesquite jointer with and adjustable mouth, It ls a fairly massive battleship of a plane, but it works like a champ.



All of these were made with the hock blades from one of those kits.

Bob

[Glen Evans]

Jay, I imagine you could make your wedge lay it in the plane mouth with rubber cement and then epoxy or glue in abuttments for a perfect fit. A couple of wood dowels through the plane throat wall into the abuttments might help to keep things tight over time. I think this is roughly the approach used by HN Gordon planes.

Glen

[Joel Goodman]

http://linuxplane.awardspace.com/index.html is a link to plane building using abutments (if that's the right word) but made in the Krenov (saw it apart glue it together) manner. I haven't tried it but it does hold the wedge in another time tested way -- similar to the Gordon kits -- but they us a brass fitting. Another feature is an adjustable mouth. Has anyone built one of these?

[Jay Kir]

Thank you for the links and suggestions. I've been researching the physics of planing, and there are pictures out there that show that the chipbreaker doesn't break chips at all (at least not when it's in its regular position, say 1/32" or more behind the blade edge). So..., has anyone tried making their own blades, by getting 0-1 steel bars, cutting them and having them heat-treated? I wonder how different the edge holding ability would be. It might also make for a simpler plane (no need to mortise the slot for the screw that holds the chipbreaker).
Jay

[Sam Takeuchi]

Skipping all that trouble, for 12 bucks or less (if you want narrower ones), you can get a HSS blade from Lee Valley. When it comes to edge retention, O1 doesn't stand out.