A question that needs to be asked...

[Keith Burns]

Geogre, I went back and re-read the posts. I have to agree with you that it was pretty harsh but as grown men I think you guys worked it out.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Here's a sticky from the Turner's Forum:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56171

[Joe Tonich]

I'm not talking about style, or pushing your definition of style on others. People are different, in their views of what looks good.

OK....here's an example...





I turned this a while ago...been told it's cool and also been told it's butt ugly. lol I happen to still think it looks cool, but I can also see the others views too. I will turn something like this again, using some ideas that the 'butt ugly' club has offered....make the opening smaller, raise the shoulder a bit, make the bottom curve out instead of inverted (Yep, someone sent me that with their opinion. ), etc... and I'll probably find what I was after in the first place. If all I got were Attaboys, would I ever try to fine tune it? Probably not. We all try diff. things, and should, but not get angry because someone see's something and suggests it even if not asked.

Glad this thread has opinions coming forth, just ask that no-one singles out anyone and keeps it friendly. I think we're all mature enough to do that.

[Ken Glass]

Joe,
Your last post begs the question I have been wanting to ask. Is Good Form truly that subjective. I know good tool work is an acquired skill, but artistic talent is of another breed of itself. I have seen some excellent talented turners who were skilled with a tool, but had very little concept of good form. I do believe you can't have one without the other and be considered a Professional Turner. There is sometimes a fine line between amateur and professional. It may be what his or her turnings sell for, or it may be how it is received at an art gallery, or if the turner is making a living from turning, but none the less there is a standard. Look on most magazine covers of turning magazines and you will see some amazing turnings by some very talented professional turners. I have never seen one that lacked great form. So, what is great form?

[George Guadiane]

First of all, I think this might be a hijacking, BUT...

Joe,
Your last post begs the question I have been wanting to ask. Is Good Form truly that subjective. I know good tool work is an acquired skill, but artistic talent is of another breed of itself. I have seen some excellent talented turners who were skilled with a tool, but had very little concept of good form. I do believe you can't have one without the other and be considered a Professional Turner. There is sometimes a fine line between amateur and professional. It may be what his or her turnings sell for, or it may be how it is received at an art gallery, or if the turner is making a living from turning, but none the less there is a standard. Look on most magazine covers of turning magazines and you will see some amazing turnings by some very talented professional turners. I have never seen one that lacked great form. So, what is great form?

Great form IMO is two things
The "classic" perception which can include things like the "golden rectangle," and historic - Greek, Roman, Gothic, Native American, ETC.
Anything that holds your attention and makes you want to be an owner, either as a collector or as an artist.

[Joe Tonich]

It's not totally hijacking because it leads back to the question, Can one learn and improve his/her turning skills and 'eye' for design if all they get are 'Attaboys'?

If a form is absolutely awful, would you want to know or would you want to keep doing the same thing in utter bliss, cause nobody told you it was actually awful?

From what I see in the poll.....this question is something that actually needs to be looked at further.

I just want Attaboys. 1 1.37%

I'd like honest opinions and constructive criticism 71 97.26%

I've learned all I can so don't bother me with opinions 1 1.37%

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Joe,

I suggest that if someone wants constructive criticism they should ask and get it in a civil manner.

This has been previously covered:
As requested, here the the Critique "Rules" document for use when serving as a mentor. This was written by Christopher K. Hartley.

Read First When Requesting Project Critiques

These guidelines are the composite work of the members of the Turning Forum. They are established to promote the ongoing Learning, Skill Development and Fun for all those who would elect to participate in seeking constructive critiques of their work. Within this process there are two areas of responsibility. The first is the responsibility of the person requesting a critique(referred to as Student from this point on) and the second is the responsibility of the person giving the critique(referred to as Mentor from this point on) . Both of these individual responsibilities will be addressed here for the purpose of establishing clarity, understanding and unity of purpose.

Student Responsibility and Expectations(Your Commitment):

When you submit a project for critique enter the words "Critique Requested" in the subject line. Only those posts containing this identifier will fall under this program. This identifier will indicate that you know and understand the parameters of this process and give the Mentors the liberty to openly and honestly critique your project.

Provide a clear description of the project to include: Dimensions, Wood Type, Sanding grits used, finish used.

State any specific challenges you faced.

In the body of your request, state any artistic goal or objective or vision you had in mind for the project. Without this information the Mentor may not have a clear picture of your objective and call in question something that you intended to be a part of the project. Remember some things tend to be more subjective than objective in nature.

Provide pictures as clear as you are able to take. there should be a top view, bottom view and side view. This is not a display picture. the picture should be as close as possible and with no attempt to hide flaws in the work.

When requesting a critique be more ready to listen than to defend. If your intent is merely to display a work for comments of encouragement use the normal approach and do not ask for a critique.

Trust your Mentors, in the majority of cases those Mentors who comment will have experienced what they comment on and have experience in overcoming that obstacle. Be teachable. Always remember that there are no negatives or failures only opportunities for improvement.

Be willing to unlearn and re-learn if necessary.

Feel good that you have taken the steps to improve and develop your skill.


Mentor Responsibility and Expectations(Your Commitment):

Anyone can step into this role. You can be a student and be a mentor as well. Just as we all have things we excel in, we all have areas for improvement. Comment only on those things you know you have developed skill or knowledge in. To be credible with the Student we must have integrity.

Be Humble, remember you once were where they are.

Be Honest, You can tell someone almost anything as long as they feel that you have their best interest at heart. Holding back the truth is more hurtful than helpful. the issue is how that truth is shared.

In giving a critique, there may be multiple areas for improvement. Identify the areas but have the student focus on the one or two that will bring the greatest impact first. Don't let a student become overwhelmed with four or five areas to work on. If another Mentor has identified something, don't repeat it unless you can add more depth or a different perspective.

As a Mentor it is ok to ask a student if they are willing to accept an assignment to adjust or develop a skill.

Use the Sandwich Technique when assessing a student's work. (Start with a plus, address the area for improvement, end on a positive)

Sometimes there is more than one right answer or approach. Be flexible.

Always remember, true mentors are not those who accept the title nor those who are assigned to the position. We truely only become Mentors when those we serve choose us as Mentors.
__________________

[Jeff Nicol]

First let me say that everyone likes to be stroked and given a warm fuzzy! Not all turners will ever reach the highest marks as a turner but want to continue to learn and here that what they did has merit, but could possibly be improved by trying some other method or adding something here or there.

If the people who are unhappy about the ATTABOYS would read and follow the posts they would be able to see that many of the young, new and inexperienced turners recieve more encouragment through phrases like: Great finish, nice shape, cool wood, or something else that is pretty benign but "TACTFUL AND ENCOURAGING"!!!! There are some turners who have turned for 30 years that may not be as good as someone who has turned for 6 months. The pride that the turner feels from being told he did a good job is better than tearing them down with cruel and ignorant comments. If you think you are better than anyone one this forum you should stop posting and go elsewhere. How everyone responds to a given post with pictures with positive remarks is not for the unhappy, bitter, uncaring, disrespectful, self agrandizing, non sharing know it alls to respond to. If you are so good at turning and only wish to bring others down to make you feel superior I for one don't wish to here from you ever!

I am not a DaVinci, Rembrandt, Monet, Rodan, Ellsworth, Bin Pho, Malcom Tibbitts, or any of the many others who I hold to be artists and great at what they do but I hope to get there some day, but the comments should be tactful, sincere, and Respectful. By understanding and getting to know each and every person you respond to will give you better insight in how you respond and not stick your foot in your mouth.

If you are happy in your own life you can be positive to others, if not, fix yourself first.

Saddened by this,

Jeff

[Don Eddard]

Don,
I don't disagree with you that there are times when I see undeserved "atta boys," but...
IMO, the general tone of THIS post sounds angry and defensive.
The "not sugar-coating my suggestions" - "like it or not" aspects of this post may put a point on why you may not be well received. There are gracious ways to say, "overall, this piece is crap." From THIS post, it sounds (to me) like this is an area where you could use some work. I could go on, in more detail, describing each area where I feel like your tone probably has more to do with how you are received than anything else, but I think that would be piling on.
You said you can take it, I hope this came across as constructive.

Thanks, George. I do take your comments as constructive, and you're correct, my post was angry, although the defensive aspect wasn't intentional. I'm generally a bit less brusque in my comments here, but I'm angry because of comments like the one I quoted above yours. I don't appreciate being called names or being told to "get a life" by clueless people.

RE: the various comments from people about form and design being subjective, I agree completely with that notion. In the two above-referenced posts that seem to have started some of this melee, my suggestions had nothing to do with form, but instead were photo-related. I suggested a non-plaid background in one, and to turn the photo 90 degrees in the other.

Because of the subjective nature of forms, there are always going to be well-turned pieces that I'm not fond of. Joe's piece above is an example. Although the form doesn't do much for me, Joe turned that particular form very well, so my only suggestions would be regarding the photos, in an effort to help him show it off better.

[Mark Norman]

Well said Jeff!

I'm with you 100% on this.

[David Christopher]

I think if you dont like something that is said scroll down to the next post.....Im not going to waste my life being mad at someone I dont even know.....lets all grow up

[Mike Svoma]

Well said Jeff. Words to live by.

Mike

[Keith Burns]

Well I know I for one want honest critiques of my work. If you think a piece I have done needs improvement tell me what needs improved in your eyes. Will I go right back out to the shop and incorporate into my next piece immediately, probably not. Will I file it away in my corticle island to draw on from my subconsious in future turnings, you bet I will.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Keith...I can only speak for myself. When I post something and put "Critiques and comments welcomed"...I mean it.

I can also understand that beginning turners need the positive pats on the back as well as constructive criticism. If they don't ask for a critique, then one shouldn't be given IMHO.

If someone asks for a critique, it should be given to them in civil manner.

If someone else has already critiqued something, I don't think that everybody should "pile on" just because you agree. This can appear to be almost a "gang" mentality.

The manner in which the critique is worded has a lot to do with the way it is received.

Being too critical of someone's turnings...especially to a beginning turner can be counterproductive IMHO.

[David Hostetler]

For the most part, we are all adults, or at least mature enough young people that can handle and put constructive criticism to proper use. HOWEVER, some people flatly slam another's work offering nothing constructive at all. As far as my woodturning goes, I am an absolute newbie, and I know it. I have only recently been able to reproduce coves and beads with any real consistency. I know I stink... Having that reinforced won't help much. But being told something like... I see a good start here here and here, where you are on the right track, and this this and that are ways you can improve would go THOUSANDS of miles toward actually helping me... Flat out slams will just get me, and probably other folks thinking (gee that person is an, well, other word for Donkey...)