A question that needs to be asked...

[Joe Tonich]

Can one learn and improve his/her turning skills and 'eye' for design if all they get are 'Attaboys'?

There have been some posts here that beg the question, IMHO.

It is my opinion that people need CONSTRUCTIVE criticism of their work to continually improve. If all they get are attaboys, they will get in a rut and their skills quit improving. Everything they turn will look the same as everything they turned yesterday, last month, last year...

I haven't turned much since I blew out my arm/shoulder a few years ago. I used to lurk here a lot, then less and less, as some members here flame others who dare criticise their turnings. I feel, if your showing what you turned here, you aught to be mature enough to take others opinions of it. There are a lot of great turnings by members here, but there are a lot that could use some criticism also. I always asked for it as that way my skills could grow. Believe me, I've turned some humdingers, and appreciated it when people told me where I messed up.

I hardly post because I'm not into 'attaboys'. Lifes too short to have to worry about offending someone with my opinion. If you don't want any opinions, please put it in your post....or a 'I'll be offended if you don't like it and try to teach me by your experiences' in the sig. line.

Please don't whoop me for this, I'm just wondering how everyone else feels about this subject.

[alex carey]

I definitely prefer criticism over attaboys. I am a self taught young turner who needs all the help he can get. I think I've done alright for myself but the more criticism the better in my opinion.

There is definitely a lot of "attaboy" attitude but often that is just fine. Many people post their work and do not ask for critiques and many of us newer turners don't have much advice to give to the older and "wiser" turners.

Generally if a critique is asked someone will usually chime in. I think the key is to keep things positive though, often if too many critiques are given especially by the pros the newer people and even the intermediate people might be too intimidated to post again.

Like I said though, if I get 20 critiques and 1 attaboy I am more than happy.

Alex

[Bruce McElhaney]

That's a great question, Joe. I don't want to whoop on anyone, but I've seen a lot of stuff here get kudos that didn't really deserve 'em, IMHO. Of course it takes guts to stick your neck out and ask for honest criticism. OTOH, I'd venture a guess that many who post pics of their work aren't really looking for honest constructive criticism. They're mostly looking for some show and tell. attaboys.

Overall, most posted work here gets positive responses regardless, although some more enthusiastic than others. So the bar appears to be shifted up a bit here, and a standard polite response of, "Nice work" is kinda, ho hum and not worth as much as it should be.

[Norm Zax]

Poll has a missing option: "An ocassional attaboy for encouragement along with tips for improvement".
Attaboys have a great purpose and thats encouraging you along. We all know how addictive this hobby is but if you were a starter getting only criticism, you will bend and eventually break. Superb work gets Wows. Anything under that shouyld deserve a mix - well done, next time try to...
My 2c,
Norm

[Mark Norman]

Attaboy Joe!

[George Guadiane]

Poll has a missing option: "An ocassional attaboy for encouragement along with tips for improvement".
Attaboys have a great purpose and thats encouraging you along. We all know how addictive this hobby is but if you were a starter getting only criticism, you will bend and eventually break. Superb work gets Wows. Anything under that shouyld deserve a mix - well done, next time try to...
My 2c,
Norm

I think Norm pretty much nailed it!
By now, MY skin is pretty thick, so I feel like I can take it, and to be honest, other than the odd piece, I kinda know where I missed the mark, BUT, I would still rather hear the CONSTRUCTIVE criticism (along with an "atta boy" encouragement is fine).

I started spending time on these sites with the express intent of learning whatever I could from whomever was willing to help. I understood (understand) that I don't know everything and I'm not already perfect.

When I have put myself out there, ASKING for critique, I have actually wanted to hear the truth. I want people to tell me what they think and why... A little "and here is how I would approach this issue" would be good too.

PROBLEM: I feel like I'm a decent turner (and a GOOD sander), but OFTEN, I don't feel comfortable giving critiques, because I don't want to offend... When I don't really know the other person, have a common language/terminology, I MIGHT say something innocent (or in fun) that gets taken the wrong way, so I often choose to say nothing "critical" about form, orientation of the wood, finish, etc. rather than risk offending.
Besides, I'm only so qualified in the first place, I mean I'm not going to tell David Elsworth how he could improve a piece. And there are a lot of really great turners on this site, for instance who really do great work, to which I have little if anything constructive to add - "the form could use a little more/less curve - it looks like you have a flat spot on the bottom 1/3 of this form - I notice that you have posted pictures of several pieces in that form, I think they would look more elegant if you..." Stuff like that.

My critique request often reeds:

"As Always, All Questions, Comments and Critiques Welcome
(and I CAN handle the truth)."

My intent was to let people willing to comment know that I WANT to know how I can get better. I think that we can let each other know what we want by how we ask for comments:
"Isn't this GREAT" would get one kind of response, etc.

[Steve Trauthwein]

I agree with George about not wanting to offend anyone. Another aspect of this is the format. When one reads a critic or opine without other input (ie facial expressions, timber of voice, body language, etc.) then a whole range of intent is missing. People will often mistake your intent when these critical communication components are present. When this mixture is absent then the object of the remarks must supply them, and that is when the trouble begins.

I think if one is really intent on learning they need to develop a critical eye of their own and ask a question about a technique or curve or color. I also believe that many post here for the boost that comes from a few friendly comments, any pros that have critiqued my work have picked the piece up and completely run their hands and eyes over it.

Really good question! (I hope that is not too much praise?)

Regards, Steve

[Joe Tonich]

I'm not saying that you can't give an Attaboy with your opinion....
I agree that superb work should get wows, and anything under that should deserve a mix - well done, next time try to...but how often do you see that happen? I always mix in something good with any criticism I have. It's important to know what you did right AND what you could correct in future turnings..ie..flat spots in the curves, bases being too large, etc....

JMHO.

[Don Eddard]

OK, I responded once to this thread and it already got poofed. Let's try again in a little less specific manner.

I believe the majority of the people here genuinely want to improve their work, and look for constructive feedback to do so. And I'm talking about the entire range of skills, from rank beginner to seasoned professional. However, it's obvious that there are some individuals here who don't really want to hear suggestions for improving their work or the presentation of same. That's fine, it's their loss, and their work will always retain the amateur, made in the garage look it currently has. All they want are sugar-coated attaboys and pats on the back for producing and presenting mediocre work, and a number of regulars here seem to be willing to pile on the praise for it, while absolutely ignoring glaring problems in the work or presentation.

I agree everyone can use some positive reinforcement from time to time, especially beginners who are earnestly trying to learn and improve their skills. But when an experienced professional turner instantly attacks anyone who doesn't gasp in awe at his work, and refuses to accept that there is room for improvement in their work, I have a problem with that, and lose my incentive to be complimentary. Especially when there are simple things that could be done to improve their product.

I have been attacked on this forum for not sugar-coating my suggestions, called names because I prefer not to post pictures of my work, and berated for not paying the $6.00 for the "Contributor" tag next to my name. And yet I have never insulted or degraded anyone's work, I've only offered valid suggestions or opinions. I may come off brash, but I don't think anyone has disputed my suggestions. They've only taken offense that I offered them. I suspect it'd make a handful of people happy if I'd just storm off like a hurt little boy and stay away from the forum. Well you know what? It ain't gonna happen. Unlike some of the people here, I can take it as well as dish it. I learn a lot from this forum, and like it or not, I'm willing to share some of my experience in return.

[Barry Elder]

As Joe said, criticism needs to have a "constructive" bent. Otherwise it is just a "rant". "Attaboys" have their place also, but "silence" is golden! There have been some posts and pictures here that only rated "silence", but they are few. Once you realize that you can reveal the beauty in the piece of wood that God created for you to use, then you can use your brain to create different forms such as bowls, plates, platters, hollow forms, candlesticks, pens, etc., to reveal that beauty so others can see and admire it. Keep turnin' and learnin'!

[Harvey Schneider]

I agree with just about every thing that has been said here, but there is an important attribute that has been overlooked. Style, or sense of design, is not universal.
While critique of technique is fairly straight forward, individual sense of design is not. In order to be understood and accepted, critique of design needs to be expressed as opinion not as absolute.
I have seen people in one of the woodturning groups I belong to pick up a piece that I would have tossed in the scrap heap, and say, "I love this, isn't it charming?" To them the piece appealed to some inner value that I do not share.
So my feeling is that opinions that are expressed as truth can hurt and offend. Opinions that are carefully expressed as what they really are (personal preference) help to educate us as to how others respond to our work.
Just my two cents worth.

[Gary Max]

If everytime I post a pic here the same person bashes it---whats the point in posting. The reason I post pics is to share----nothing more----If I was trying to show off I would only post pics of finished work.
I have no trouble with "CONSTRUCTIVE criticism ".
Oh ----the stupid PM's from the same cheap jeck just add to the problem.

[Hilel Salomon]

Harvey and Norm are right on the money. This forum attracts many beginners and they need encouragement more than criticism. Unless a person asks for honest appraisals and constructive advice, "attaboys" are the best response.
Almost everything I've ever done, in academics, sports and hobbies, I've begun haltingly. I always knew that "attaboys" were encouragements to keep on learning and improving. If all I ever got was "Oh brother" I might not have continued. Certainly very sensitive people might choose to give up.
As someone who desperately needs some training to progress, I usually offer a picture of my work just to let my forum friends know that I'm trying. When, and I almost always do, I ask for advice, I'm prepared to listen and learn. Keep in mind that taste and preferences vary dramatically and the advice or commentaries that come in may be contradictory. Advice givers also have to take that into consideration and not get into a snit when their advice is not taken.
Of course, I offer that advice cautiously.
Hilel.

[RL Johnson]

I have to agree with Harvey. I find my taste do not agree with most of the general public. I remember turning a purple pen once and then I received 5 more request for purple pens. I just hate purple, but many people love purple. Am I right and they wrong? I don't think so but I would hate to offer some constructive criticism to someone who's design or color is not to my liking but could be a well excuted turning.
New turners are trying to master their tools and techniques and need all the encouragement they can get. It is a fine line you walk to criticise a new turner and inadvertently crush their desire to turn. That is why I try to only comment on turnings when asked by the turner. After all they are only getting what they asked but again any criticism must be offered to encourage the turner to improve what is being criticized; be that form, function, color, proportion, type of wood or some other attribute. IMHO.

[Neal Addy]

Nice form and finish, Joe!