McNaughton coring system question

[Dan Forman]

CSUSA list the system as Mk 8, and has a slightly higher price on individual kits than Woodcraft, which doesn't use the Mk 8 designation. Is there any difference in the kits? Is the Mk8 a new version?

Can a Monster laser be easily adapted to work with the McNaughton system?

Thanks,

Dan

[Glenn Roberts]

Dan, I believe the Mark 8 is the latest version it includes extra features, you can download a pdf file that explains it from the Kelton web site. email Kelton to enquire about a laser guide.
I hope this helps.

[Don Eddard]

Dan, I've got the McNaughton coring tools and the Monster laser, and I haven't come up with a way to hook the two up together yet. I'm sure there's a way to fabricate a mounting block that would attach to the McNaughton handle and have a threaded hole to fit the vertical stem of the Monster laser, but I haven't tried to do it yet. It may be more cost effective to just buy the McNaughton laser, but I don't know that for certain.

[Greg Haugen]

Dan,
Mark 8 is a new version. I'm not sure if there will be two versions or if the Mark 8 will replace the old as it's phased out. There's a couple of new features on the Mark 8.

As far as the laser? I'm not sure if the Monster will fit. They do make a laser that is specifically for the McNaughton-CSUSA carries it. Personally, I've never found the need for a laser system on a coring tool but there's nothing wrong with it either.

For what it worth, I've used a McNaughton system for 3 years and had great success with it with hundreds of cores. I've recently switched to the Oneway Easy Core system. It's alot more versatile that what it gets credit for. There's no need to widen out the kerf/deeper or shallower, etc. as it is with the McNaughton. There's no binding, very little to no drift with the oneway while the McNaughton has a far amount of it. It's not a cheap system but there's not a better system on the market, in my opinion.

Just my two cents.

[Mark Pruitt]

Dan,
When I bought my McNaughton a couple years ago, Randy Privett told me that he had an adapter to fit the Monster Laser to the McN tool. I never bought that adapter and haven't needed it, for two reasons: (1) my position when coring is well clear of the workpiece, which would make it difficult to view a laser; but more importantly (2) you can get an excellent sense of thte cutter's position inside the workpiece if you simply teach yourself to visualize the curve continuing its course and ending at the point where it intersects an imaginary line drawn by continuing the straight part of the blade.

I would call CSUSA and ask about what difference the Mk 8 offers.

[Reed Gray]

I haven't seen the Monster adapter for their laser so it will go on the McNaughton coring tool. I do have the McNaughton laser pointer system. The bracket is made to mount through the same 2 set screws that hold the blade in, and it goes off to the side of the handle, not on top like shown in the CSUSA catalogue. I found that to be a royal PITA. The idea of having it out to the side is so you can raise and lower the vertical post depending on how big of a core you are taking. Well, I cut that post off to the max height I would use, and had the bracked welded to the handle (similar to how it is in the CSUSA catalogue). Make sure that the vertical post will be straight above (perpendicular) the cutter, not at an angle (I clamped it into place with a blade in the handle, then got it welded). I love the laser on my McNaughton. It seemed that my cores would always be about 1 inch too shallow, or 1 inch too deep (lampshade). Now I can aim for the perfect depth every time instead of aiming a bit shallow just to be safe. With Randy's laser pointer (the best laser set up out there that I have seen), it screws into the hollowing bar set up. Wouldn't be too difficult to make some thing to screw it into, and weld that to your handle.

The new McNaughton coring set up has a few changes. There are 4 gates for the 4 blade systems that he has, and a spot that holds a yoke for the hollowing tools. Kel now has a set of coring blades for the mini lathes in addition to his other sets. The new tool rest does away with the T shaped over bar and replaces it with a square bracket that the blades fit under. I do like this better. As far as the rest of the tool rest, I think there is just too much going on. I have had problems with the other tool rest when using the large set of blades. When coring, they can rub on the gate of the other blades, kind of interfering with the cut. It still works. I like the oldest tool rest for the large set of blades (from when there were only 2 sets of coring blades), but prefer the newer one for all the other blades. If you do get the new tool rest, the old large set of blades won't work in it. Kel has made them thinner, and the gate is narrower as well.

robo hippy

[Dan Forman]

Thanks for the clarifications. I don't have either the Monster or a coring system yet, but thought it would be nice if the former would fit the latter. I thought it odd that one would have to spend $125 to upgrade to a new "basic" post, if there had not been changes to the system.

Greg---could you elaborate on the versatility aspect of the Oneway? have you found a way to do other shapes with it? to you, what are the costs and benefits of each system from your standpoint. I know some of these were discussed in the other recent thread.

[Greg Haugen]

The versatility of the oneway system comes from adjusting the posts on the base plate as well as moving the plate back and forth. By using a larger knife, with the plate set back further, and the core sized narrower(knife moved towards the center)-you'll get a core that's narrow but deeper. By using a smaller knife, base plate set very close, and adjusted wider you'll get a shallower core. For example, with the 9" knife I've made 4" to 11" cores with varying depths.

To me a Woodcut system, has a lower price, would be good for the "occasional" user that wouldn't core anything bigger than 12" or so. It has the least amount of versatility since the tailstock is used in it's stability. It's a safe, controlled, restrained system. Not meant for production turning. The draw backs to it, other than versatility, are the parts. Woodcut products are offered too many places so parts could be an issue in the future. The knives can be "retipped" but replacement knives are not readily available.

McNaughton, has a lower price, and is the most versatile of all of the systems. I've never had an issue with using it but I know there are a few that due. Often times a "Pro" can also be a "Con". This is a great example of that statement. It's versatility can also be it's down fall. For the system to work the best, the initial kerf has to be widen out to allow the massive shavings to escape. Also it's possible to accidently change it's direction or path-hence cutting a core an inch shallower or deeper-be withdrawing the knife and reinserting to clear shavings. Being able to "pivot" the knife is a pro and a con because of this. Any system will only cut an arc. The blades will cut it's shape, period. This system has an issue with drifting in the kerf. By changing its path you're only cutting more surface off of one of the cores. The pivot can also cause some dislodges and catches since you're leaving the kerf that has been cut. One area this system does better than the rest is in natural edge bowls and forms that are more "cone" shaped. No other system has a straight knife option. To me, the system is made up two "bowl form" knives and two "cone form" knives. One area that I don't like about the system is that there is no consistancy in production. There's at least 3-4 different tool gates and varying thicknesses in blades. I've traveled and demonstrated a fair amount and this topic usually comes up. "I can't use this dang thing". After visiting the person's shop and seeing the system I saw why; the knives are no where near an "arc", the gate is pretty tight so the smoothness of sliding the knives through is a hassle and causes "thrusts" that catch. Some even say, "there's good sets and bad sets". The vibration from the system also is conveyed back to the turner more than the other systems since it's not anchored or support by much more than the handle in your hand. I've used this system for quite awhile and liked it.

Oneway's Easy Core-does not win the award for "lowest" price. It is possible to do a variety of shapes but not as many as the McNaughton. What does it do?? Creates a predictable core and it's a comfortable system to use. I can core 8-10 hours a day with it and feel like I've done nothing. Can't say that about the McNaughton. There's also no need to widen the kerf to get the shavings cleared. The three sides of the cutter take what would a large shaving and turn them into thin small shavings. The new cutters, with the knife edged center, eliminates most if not all of the drifting that is associated with the McNaughton. Since the knife swings on an arc, there's no pivoting or chances for a catch, pulling the knife out and reinserting to continue the cut is a 1 second task. The lathe does get shut off to adjust the support finger, true. The cuts and clearing of the shavings are so fast, even stopping the lathe to re-adjust the support-it's faster than the McNaughton. It's also anchored to the lathe very securely so you're not absorbing any of the vibrations. There's also no tool gate to slide or bind the knives through. Here's a Youtube video of an interview of Glenn Lucas from Ireland. There's footage of him using the system in "real time" in a couple of spots throughout the video. This is what got me to rethink my coring and I'm glad I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20PSNV4Pp0

I'd say the McNaughton is like a truck with manual transmission and no power steering. Oneway's is like a truck with an automatic transmission with power steering.


A summary, there's no "perfect" system, yet. The best one is the one that you learn to use and use it. For me, being a utility bowl turner, the artistic "cone" forms aren't what I'm after. I want a good, predictable, comfortable system that I can use all day. Every system has it's pro's and con's.



Clear as mud, right?

[Reed Gray]

Actually, the Woodcut has about as much lateral movement available as the Oneway as the attachment is in a slot and can move, but again it is small.

As for the McNaughton, there are a number of things you can do to tweak it so it works better. For me, I grind off the spear point till it is square. Spear point has about 1/2 inch plus of cutting surface, and square has 3/8 inch. The spear is a Mike Mahoney idea and it does come in handy if you are cutting the core all the way off. The spear point is best for end grain, burl and crotch cores, because if you take it most of the way down and then try to break it off, you can rip right through the bottom. The square tip clogs a lot less than the spear point.

Part of the drifting problem is because the blades are rather flexable and will bend as you core. Try to remove the nub left when a core breaks out with the coring blade and see what I mean. Add to that, they are much longer than the other blade systems, and this adds to flex and the drift. I have talked to Mike about this and he doesn't think they drift. To me, if they didn't drift, you would never have to open the kerf, or reposition the tool rest. I also took one blade and bent the tip of it in slightly. Looking at most of my blades, it looks like the blade is bent to an arc, the the very tip goes straight. I figure this is because the blades are stamped, and the tip isn't in the form, so the last 1/2 inch isn't in line with the arc. This will contribute to the drifting. The one blade where I bent the tip in, actually drifts to the inside now, not the outside. It is simple to make the cut on a 12 inch bowl all the way down in one pass with no stopping to remove shavings and not having to widen the kerf. As for the catches, for me they mostly come when you have cleared the chips and are inserting the blade back in, and are kind of deep, when the tip encounters the wood it will flex down, and this can result in a catch. Ride the inside of the core when you get close to the bottom. This helps, but then again, harder woods will chatter more than medium ones (like locust to cherry). I also lock the gates in place on the tool rest. I don't like them to pivot when I am coring. These are my modifications. I have commented about them to Kel, and he was surprised. His position is that they could have some benefits, and doesn't approve or disaprove of them. The McNaughton is faster for me to use, but as we all know, we are all different.

robo hippy

[Bob Bergstrom]

Wow. What a great discussion of two philosophies of coring. Thats what makes this forum so great. Thanks guy I for one have learn a lot from turners like you.

[Ryan Baker]

The stepped tip on the Oneway tool is something that I find interesting. Using the McNaughton (or really any of the tools) is making a parting tool cut with a 3/8-1/2" wide cut all in one bite. On green wood, that isn't so bad. On really hard, dry wood, that is a huge chunk to hog out all at once. The idea that the Oneway breaks that up into three smaller bites seems like a potentially good idea. Of course, cutting three times 1/8 at the same time may not really be better than one times 3/8. It seems kinda the same idea as Reed squaring off the tip to get a 3/8" kerf instead of 1/2" -- it's just easier. Maybe I should get an extra blade and experiment with the tip shape. Anybody try this on a McNaughton tool already?

[Greg Haugen]

One thing I do like about the Oneway system with playing around with it's versatility compared to the Woodcut is the support finger. As you know, you can have the knife further away but still have the support finger, at least the post of it to start the cut, up close to the bowl.

Reed, I have seen your technique about the tip. I can honestly say I've never ground the tips square. When I first started to use that tool, I didn't think about changing anything from what Mahoney said and never looked back. I do see your point about it though.

Coming from a background in custom furniture making and cabinetry, one of the beautiful and truly great aspects of turning is that there a very few "rules" or wrong ways to do something and a plethora of "right" ways to do it. All of my bowl turning is done with gouges with varying degrees and grinds (ala Batty and Mahoney), I don't even own a scraper that can be used on a bowl and I know you use them with different applications. Heck, some day I think it would be great for us to have our version of "two ways to make a bowl" and we could even add coring to it. Even if no one showed up for the demo, we'd still have a blast and make a big mess in the process.

[Reed Gray]

A little more clarification here. By grinding the spear point square, the kerf remains 3/8 inch wide. The shavings get narrower. You are grinding off the 2 sides of a triangle which will take a shaving 1/2 or slightly more wide by cutting with both sides of the triangle. At the bottom of the cut, you are using both sides to cut at the same time. If you are trimming up the cut, then you are cutting with one side or the other. The old tecnique was to fishtail the handle to slightly widen the kerf. I didn't like this method. The smoother the sides of your cut are, the better your chips/shavings clear. Any bump or roughness in it will tend to catch the shavings. Fishtailing tends to leave a lot of ridges. I was talking to Greg Jenson about the McNaughton (US rep for Kelton) and he commented on how the spear point just folded up the shaving so it was narrower and would clear easily. Well, for me, the shavings seemed to fold initially, then just as they would get to the rim of the bowl, they would expand and clog it up. Murphy's law for me.

If I was to use the Oneway system as my main tool, I would change the tip. I had them send me a tip that wasn't ground with the point on it. I taper ground the outsides of it (wider at the tip, and narrower at the back end of it because if the sides are parallel, it won't fit into a kerf, and you could get some nasty catches), and put a 70 degree bevel on the face. This worked excellently, but was a lot more agressive (cut with a lot less handle pressure) than the cutter with the point on it. Not a problem really, but when I talked to Oneway about it, they said that the reason they didn't supply them that way was because it was more agressive and might not be suitable for most turners. It did solve the having to remove the tip to sharpen it problem. For sharpening, I would make a disc sander (5 inch or so MDF, with metal abrasive on it, 220 or coarser). I tried to touch up the tops on a 220 diamond hone (get the stone wet, use a stick to push down and slide across the stone), and it did make it a bit better, but really didn't do the job. Oneway commented to me that you have to remove a certain amount of metal to resharpen it. Some thing like you can touch up your gouges with a hone, but eventually you have to take it back to the grinder. Chip/shaving clearing was not a problem, basically the same as the standard tip.

I did have Mike Hunter retip one of my McNaughton blades with one of his carbide tips (a square one so it is back to the spear point, don't think there are any other possibile geometric shapes that will work). It does cut nicely, but again for me, the expanding shavings at the rim of the bowl, and I was getting more plug ups. Also, the sides of the cores had a lot of ridges. Some of this could be opperator not being really familiar with the tool. Worth checking out as an experiment. I don't know which would be the better bargain, getting your blades retipped with carbide, or wear out the McNaughton blade and buy a new one. Most turners will never wear out a blade.

I would like to experiment more with the Woodcut stellite tips. The top surface is slightly concave which I was told was to help it eject the shavings which does seem to be true. Easy to sharpen. Great at keeping an edge.

robo hippy

[Greg Haugen]

I do agree about the "fishtail" method. I felt it caused more issues than it solved. To me a system shouldn't need modifications or "tricks" to make it work "out of the box."

I was the first to test the tips/knives that Mike Hunter is working on. I liked them a lot. I tested tips that were steeper than "square". I thought his tips were better than the standard McNaughton cutter. One aspect I liked about it was that you kept your same blade- you didn't have to buy a new blade. I bought a couple of new blades once and didn't like it. The "old" ones had the wear; nice and smooth from the use. The stamping process also yields slight differences in the shapes. Having the option to re-tip can be an advantage.


That why I like the oneway system so well since the stepped tip takes much smaller shavings, it's so easy to clear and is basically catch proof in doing so. I've set up the system and my 7 year old daughter cored a small bowl with it, with supervision and assistance with moving the support. I wouldn't let her touch a McNaughton. The Oneway tip is very easy to sharpen with their jig and template. I also use a diamond hone and some WD40 as lubrication (not needed with diamond hones but it's something I learned from Alan Lacer-it cuts better and faster since the particles "float" in the WD40 and don't fill up the grit) to "touch up" the tip between grinds. The top and the two sides of the knife edge is very easy to touch up. The M4 is an also excellent steel for wear resistance.


After the class with Batty, have you changed any techniques?

[Reed Gray]

As far as tools that do or do not need tweeking, I have to mess with all of them it seems. My dad is an engineer,and the engineers motto is "if it aint broke, take it apart and fix it anyway!"

I will do a part II to I thought I knew how to turn bowls in week or so. I am still experimenting, but am prefering a lot of my old habits as being more suited to me. One difference is Stewart isn't used to a sliding headstock lathe.

robo hippy