More on Critiques of Your Work....

[Wally Dickerman]

There is a very long ongoing thread regarding asking for and posting critiques of our turned pieces. I may get some flak for my position on this.

I am always open to suggestions, positive or negative, on my work. However, I only seek a critique from someone who's opinion I value and respect. It doesn't even have to be a turner. My wife has been critiqueing my work for years. I have a friend who is an accomplished potter who gives me some valid ideas. I have some turner friends who's opinion I ask for occasionaly. However, I know some very experienced turners who put out some very butt ugly (IMO) work. I would not seek a critique from them. I will however, if one is offered, try to listen with an open mind.

I guess that what I'm getting at is, when a turner, especially a newbie, asks for a critique on a web forum, they won't always be receiving good advice. Problem is, how do they sort it out? Some advice given could even be detrimental to their efforts to improve their work.

What do you think?

Wally

[Bill Bolen]

If there was only a way that I could hear the voice speaking rather than reading the critique. I KNOW some critiques are intended to be helpful but when read the wrong inflections are put into it. I have a small Elm HF that I want to post asking for some advice and critiques but am hesitant right now. Guess I will give it a shot after the "storm" dies down a bit. I know something is just not quite right but for the life of me I do not know what that problem is!...Bill...

[Harvey Mushman]

Ya know Wally, You make several good points. Whose critique can you trust? Experience does not equal expert judgement. There are many fabulous turners who just visit here and read the posts, although their opinions would be highly valuable to many new turners. Then there are always a few extroverted "blowhards" that would have you believe that they are the expert of all experts. These are the guys that tend to be in the middle of the firestorms.

I guess the bottom line is to trust your instincts as to who is most honest and constructive when providing any critiques of your work.

Be Well!
H.

[David Walser]

Wally,

I always learn from your posts, even those few times I've disagreed with you, I've always learned something. I agree with your comment about the validity of critiques someone might receive from a post to an internet forum. In addition to the issues you raise, there's the inherent problems associated with getting an opinion that's based on nothing more than a photo. Even with very good pictures, a reviewer is significantly handicapped compared with being able to hold an object in his or her hands. Not only can you see more when holding an object in your hands -- and view the object from many different angles -- a pictures completely omits the information that comes from the "feel" of an object. How smooth is the surface, how much does the object weigh compared to how much it looks like it would weigh, are all the curves smooth? These are questions that can only be fully answered by picking up an object.

Having said that, I still think a turner can obtain valuable insight on how to improve his or turning from the opinions of others obtained over the internet. One just shouldn't place too much weight on any one opinion.

[Steve Schlumpf]

I guess that what I'm getting at is, when a turner, especially a newbie, asks for a critique on a web site, they wouldn't always be receiving good advice. Problem is, how do they sort it out?

Wally - very valid points!

It is very hard to figure out what is good advice and what is not - especially when first starting out. I welcome all comments but try my best to consider the source. When I want an honest critique - I PM or email those whose opinion and advice I have learned to trust. If the turner offering advice is already turning what I want to turn - I listen and more than likely give their suggestions a try.

So, for a newby - I would suggest checking out the work of those offering the suggestions. That should give you a good idea if the turner is talking from experience or not.

[Keith Burns]

Wally, you have a valid point on who to listen too. I think if a person really wants to learn he will do some research pretty quickly as to the person giving the critique and determine who to "listen" too. I know I did a lot of internet research on turners when I started. You can google anybody's name and add woodturner after their name and gain a lot of info on people. Even this thread will come up in searching your name at some point.

[Wally Dickerman]

Wally,

I always learn from your posts, even those few times I've disagreed with you, I've always learned something. I agree with your comment about the validity of critiques someone might receive from a post to an internet forum. In addition to the issues you raise, there's the inherent problems associated with getting an opinion that's based on nothing more than a photo. Even with very good pictures, a reviewer is significantly handicapped compared with being able to hold an object in his or her hands. Not only can you see more when holding an object in your hands -- and view the object from many different angles -- a pictures completely omits the information that comes from the "feel" of an object. How smooth is the surface, how much does the object weigh compared to how much it looks like it would weigh, are all the curves smooth? These are questions that can only be fully answered by picking up an object.

Having said that, I still think a turner can obtain valuable insight on how to improve his or turning from the opinions of others obtained over the internet. One just shouldn't place too much weight on any one opinion.

What? You've disagreed with me?

You're 100% right. Seeing a one dimensional photo doesn't even come close to telling the whole story. I've found that when a gallery puts one of my pieces in a showcase, behind glass, the piece seldom sells. People want to feel a piece if it attracts them. I've noticed that when the curves are good, people, especially women, tend to, often without knowing it, caress the curve. When you see a photo of a piece you know that you're only seeing the best side of it.

Wally

[Rick Prosser]

I am a newbie turner with a few months under my belt.

When I first started, I read thru a lot of posts to get a feel for the attitude and atmosphere of the forum. I felt like I would get positive comments if I posted some work samples, and also some mild critique. As expected, when I posted some photos, the comments were good - worded positively, and made it easy to post more photos and ask more questions. Most of what I posted was shown to get confirmation that things were moving in the right direction. I was not looking for "hard" critiques, since I knew I was making lots of mistakes - but someone could point out incremental improvments to help me along. And, I tried to indicate that I was new at turning when posting.

Now, I know a little more, and I post for specific questions related to form and finish. Some comments I agree with, others times, not so much...
I understand more, and I am also looking more at other's work, and the critique and comments. I also incorporate these comments into my turning attempts.

I think it is different for those who have lots of expereince and know more about what they are doing - and what is expected from pro turners. They may also know who is posting the critiques. If I ever get to the pro turner level, I may change my opinion, but I expect that it may be harder for some to accept critique when they feel like they know what they are doing, and are maybe posting to showcase their style and abilities. Sometimes critique is given when not requested, and I guess it could be aggravating if you don't want it.

If you throw in that the comments are text, and everyone has good and bad days, then we should pull what is of value to ourselves from the comments, and let the remaineder scroll away. Maybe for later review, maybe not. It is just not that big a deal (for me) to get worked up over.

[Aaron Wingert]

Citiques are people's opinion...Generally of form, proportion or finish. Some people may have a more developed "technical eye", which may make their critique carry more weight due to perceived credibility. But even a newbie may have an artistic eye and is just as able to offer a constructive critique.

Example: I won a national award for sculpture many years ago as a student, and numerous regional awards for various art. I've only been turning since January and have much to learn. Does my inexperience as a turner make me less credible to offer a constructive opinion on what is actually an artistic form? Sure, it makes me less credible when dealing out advice on the turning and finishing methods though...No doubt there. Will my turning get better with time and experience? God I hope so.

Not trying to be antagonistic, just pointing out that everyone is capable of offering a constructive critique. Opinions vary, and people won't always agree. Put two pro turners next to each other and watch them argue about what they'd do differently!

Regardless of whether or not we "accept" someone's critique here on SMC, we asked for it and we should appreciate the fact that they gave the time to give it. We should also understand that even though they may not have a familiar name they may be very well qualified to give an educated opinion of the work.

[Jeff Nicol]

Wally, You are absolultly right in your questioning who is the one giving the comments and critiques. Steve has some great additions to it also by sending a PM to someone you have deemed somont to get help from. I really don't like to make waves and you are right that some great turners just breeze through once in a while to see where the competition is coming from! I think that if you won't show us what you can do how do we know if your opinion is worth beans! But we have beat that horse enough already. I have friends that have tons of college education and are book smart to the N'th degree, but when it comes to being tactful and respectful to others who are not as educated, they fall short on a good bedside manner. Sorry to say this but most of them are engineers! No offense to any of you good engineers out there! But I digress, so maybe there should be a criteria for the mentors that has to be met to be able to give out helpful and educational comments, might be tough but would weed out the unwanted not so gentle critiques. I like to get told that I am way off the mark, but be nice like has been said. Enough rambling from me, I need to rinse all the eucalyptus dust off me!

Keep the peace,

Jeff

[David Walser]

...

Example: I won a national award for sculpture many years ago as a student, and numerous regional awards for various art. I've only been turning since January and have much to learn. Does my inexperience as a turner make me less credible to offer a constructive opinion on what is actually an artistic form? ...

My wife has little if any formal art training, yet she instinctively "knows" when something is right, not-quite-right, and not-even-close. She might not know how to turn a particular object, but that doesn't mean she cannot tell whether you got the form right or not. On the other hand, some people can do something but may be of little help telling you how to do the thing they do so well. For example, back when I was an English major (shudder!) several of my peers could write exceptionally well. Few of these knew how to help another person improve their writing. They might know whether a poem was good or not, but they were at a total loss when trying to explain how to improve the work. Other students might not be strong writers, but they excelled at explaining how to improve someone else's writing. (This last group made excellent editors.)

My point (as you can tell, I was not one of the strong writers nor was I a good editor) is that it's a fallacy to think only those who can turn can offer valid suggestions. The key is to listen with an open mind, process what is said, and reject that which does not feel right.

[David Walser]

What? You've disagreed with me?...

Yes, I've disagreed with you. Both times it turned out I was wrong!

[George Guadiane]

To just say "too tall - too wide - not enough this or that" without knowing if the turner intended to do it or not really makes it difficult to comment on anything more than the "ever popular" form and finish. Could you imagine commenting on a Jordan surface treatment thinking only that it isn't smooth and shiny? Anyone commenting without knowing what the turner intended might as well be Stevie Wonder.
Part of asking for a critique is describing what the turner was trying to accomplish, etc. With this information one should be able to determine where or if the piece doesn't accomplish the objectives, this might (should) be obvious to the observer, giving anyone making a critique guidelines about how to respond.

Assuming that the request for critique contains all of the requisite information, along with photos of the piece to be critiqued, who makes a response shouldn't matter... If you know if or how the turner fell short.
If you DO know, then it's not just "this is wrong (or could be better)," its "you can get what you are trying for if you..."
If information is missing, one might be best served to ask the turner for the missing information before venturing an opinion. Adirondack style turned items are not my taste, but if you told me that that is what you were going for, I could tell you whether or not I thought you had accomplished your goal and/or what you could do differently to get the style...

I think what I'm saying (in this rambling) is that problems can arise when there is not enough information to allow critique to accurately address the turner and the piece.

[Brian McInturff]

Hmm, well I've tried to stay out of this because I have mixed feelings. One thing everyone needs to remember is these are informal critiques. That's all they can be. They are just pictures and you just can't do a full critique on a piece based off a picture. Take for instance finish - some like a high gloss, some don't. Some like wax, some don't. Form - well there are good forms, great forms, and bad forms. But there are some in between. Some will like the different odd form because it accents a void or the grain. What about pieces that look great on the outside but the inside is hideous. Or a Hollow Form where they get the outside right but just drill a large hole inside and follow no curve. I usually offer up a few comments when someone ask but it's really just based off of what I see in a pic. I may miss something obvious. I do think tearout and sanding marks should be pointed out to anyone who post pics, but tactfully.
I'm still trying to figure out why there is such a controversy on critiques. These are wood turning forums where we all have something in common, we like to turn. We can offer some advice, we can be here for each other when we hit the bad times, we can come here and "gloat" about a new tool or gloat about a turning we are proud of. Critiques are just opinions and should never be taken personally. I've been a member of WOW for several years now and I've seen some turnings get slammed that I thought were obviously great. And I've seen some get praise that obviously should've been scrutinized. Some get praised just because of "who" they are and some hardly get any comments because they are sort of a "nobody". My thought is that when someone posts a pic they usually already know what's wrong with the piece. We are our own best critics. We know far greater than any picture can show all the hidden faults.

[Curt Fuller]

Wally, you've got an awful lot of experience for me to be disagreeing with you, but here goes anyway. When I was new to turning, and I'm still fairly new, I wanted all the advice and opinions I could get. I didn't feel there were any bad suggestions, just some I didn't agree with. An example is in wall thickness of bowls, hollowforms, etc. From the beginning I've received comments that went something like 'nice form, work on getting the walls thinner'. But when I turned thinner bowls I didn't like them as much. I guess I just like the heft of a nice weighty chunk of wood. So, as a result my favorite work of my own is usually pretty solid stuff. I wouldn't say that new turners ever get bad advice, I think they just have to sort through it until they start finding their own direction. Then they'll do much like you stated and start following the advice of those that reinforce what they're trying to accomplish.

I do agree with using your spouse for critiques. After 36 years of marriage she's not shy or bashful or worried about hurting my feelings. She just says it like it is.

BTW, thanks for you insight and experience.