Frustation... with a capital F

[Greg Ware]

I recently started a new project, a simple standing desk. No drawers, just the top, skirt, three stretchers and legs. I am building this for a friend. He decided he wanted it built from alder. So far so good. The top is completed, made from 5/4, 6" wide boards. All went well, the top looks good. Skirt and stretchers were cut from 4/4 boards, jointed and planed. They to look good.
The legs have been a problem. I am using 6/4 boards ripped to 1 5/8" in order to glue 2 together to make legs aprox. 3" square and 46" long. I have made good glue line cuts, did a dry fit and it looks good. I have now tried three times with the same results using three kinds of glue (TB II, TB and TB Ext.). I spread the glue on one face and by the time I get to the end the glue has been mostly absorbed into the wood and is drying very fast, to fast. I recruited some help to spread the glue quicker, took less than 1 min., clamped it up and 10 min. later the wood has moved leaving gaps. The next day I ripped down the glue Joint and started again. I recieved some advise to spray (lightly) some water on the wood just prior to spreading the glue. That made sense, but I had the same result. Another bad glue joint with gaps. Can anybody help with what I am doing wrong. After purchasing the wood, it was stacked and stickered in my garage for almost 3 weeks, could it still be to wet?. I have worked with alder before with good results, but this time I am ready to pull my hair out. I appreciate any advise and/or comments.

Thanks
Greg

[Todd Bin]

You could always try a urea formaldehyde glue (plasic resin glue). It won't start to tack until 45 minutes and won't be dry for 24 hours. It is available at woodcraft.

[David Christopher]

try a light coat of sanding sealer on the glue joint...the glue wont absorb as quick

[Peter Quinn]

Humm. Any chance you have checked the moisture with a meter, or can you? I would think that rapid absorption of moisture and wood movement would be a function of the stock being too dry, not too wet. Or possibly there is a moisture imbalance, where the core is more moist than the surface of the stock, and the application of moisture in the glue causes strange strange movements as the dry portions absorb more glue than the more moist areas?

For instance, last month I resawed some cedar 6X8 timbers that measured 15%-23% moisture. It was milled into 12/4, 6/4, 5/4 and 4/4 boards. My shop humidity is carefully controlled at 38%. I have stickered it, the 4/4, 5/4 and some of the 6/4 is ready, 8-9%. Some of the 6/4 is still moist at the core, 8% surface measurement but 12%-15% core measurements. The 12/4 isn't there yet at all. Cedar I am finding dries quite quickly. Equilibrium can take considerable time to achieve depending on species and conditions.

Do I understand that you ripped 3" wide 6/4 boards to 1 5/8" thickness? I am confused as to how you achieved 1 5/8" from 1 1/2" boards? Perhaps i am misunderstanding what you are explaining? In any event I prefer to joint and plane stock for face laminations and reserve glue line ripping for edge glue ups.

The only other thing i can think of is perhaps to glue up all four legs as a sandwich, with a flat 3/4" caul top and bottom, and plenty of clamping pressure. Not sure what your clamping strategy is presently but I find the sandwich approach and pipe or other heavy duty clamps helps to yield a consistent and nearly invisible glue line.

[Eiji Fuller]

46" legs? Thats a tall desk.

spread the glue on thicker and use more clamps. If you aren't using any bow clamps or cauls I would suggest a clamp every 3 - 4". When I laminate boards I pour on the glue from a gallon jug and spread with 4" trim roller. A heavy spread of glue wont dry out as fast but you will have alot of squeeze out. Just use tightbond 2 or 3. The reason for the many clamps is that I believe the clamping pressure radiates out at a 45 deg. angle from the clamping point with the clamping pressure reduced the further you get from that point on the joint.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Put glue on both surfaces to be glued & clamp.

[Lee Schierer]

Apply a light coat of diluted glue to both halves and let it dry. Make sure the glue is spread evenly with no lumps or ridges. Then when you are ready to glue up the boards apply glue ing the normal manner and clamp every 3-4 inches in length. You should also do this when gluing mitered picture frames as the end grain will soak up the glue making a poor joint.

[george wilson]

Thin out your glue with water until you can spread a very light coat over the areas you are going to glue up. The dry layer of thinned glue will give you more "open time" to glue up your joints,as it will keep the final glue from losing its moisture into the wood too fast.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I spread the glue on one face and by the time I get to the end the glue has been mostly absorbed into the wood and is drying very fast, to fast. I recruited some help to spread the glue quicker, took less than 1 min.

This strikes me as a tad odd unless something is wrong about the glue. A minute shouldn't be enough for the glue to skin over and certainly not enough to have it all soak into the wood. As an aside I have never seen glue soak into wood except on end grain and then it's limited by viscosity. I have seen appreciable end grain penetration only from long cure time epoxies or those intended to penetrate.

Is Alder an unusual material for glue ups?

As for trying to seal the wood with a skim or wash coat of glue:
I'd not do that with any of the aliphatic or polyvinyl glues as they are problematic when applying new glue over old glue. You can do this with Hide, Epoxy, and Resourcinol but, to my knowledge you lose enormous adhesion when re applying an aliphatic or polyvinyl over top of an existing layer of the cured glue.

[John Thompson]

Agree with Cliff.. I do what you're doing pretty often and don't have a problem. I use Titebond III which has about a 10-15 minute set time. But.. I apply pretty liberally to one side and brush it on quickly with a chip brush whille sitting in the clamps. Then I clamp h*ll out of it as I use cabinet masters and usually about 6-8 of them on a piece the length of yours.

If I get glue squeeze out... so what as I make the lamination over-size so I can clean it up with the back of a hand plane iron and then run it through the planer for final sizing. With stock that thick clamping close is premium IMO. I normally do oak which is stiffer and the alder should come together much easier with proper clamp pressure but you still need them close as I see it.

[Peter Quinn]

I disagree with Cliff and Sarge, and I agree with Cliff and Sarge too. I think the glue size is fine as long as you let it DRY a bit, not CURE. Cured glue is a poor substrate, a wash of glue size will slow down the next round and be reactivated by the fresh glue's moisture without issue. This is SOP for gluing butt joints, particularly with pocket screws.

That said, I can not imagine this is necessary for gluing up four table legs, or a total of 8 pieces of wood. For a lot of surface area I use a 4" foam roller dipped in the glue, for a little I use a dixie cup as a dispenser and a speedball roller as a spreader a la DJ Marks. I would call your project a little surface area. I have done a fair number of laminations with a fair number of species at work, typically alone, typically in a stack of 5-7 double layers, and with a HELL of a lot of clamps involved. Never had an issue. Spread glue quick, clamp hard, leave it over night. And protect the floor from squeeze out.

Oh, I took on a commission over a year ago to build a standing desk that looks like a classic piece of furniture but can accommodate a Mac work station with tons of cables, and includes a cell and telephone station and writing platform. So far I have milled four legs, milled up the aprons, and used 475,346 pieces of paper and 2,300,045 hours in sketch up working out the design. I love the concept of the standing desk but I can't seem to get the proportions right to my eye. When some one says "I want a classic but contemporary piece of furniture, but with a unique and interesting look and......" run. Don't say good bye, just run. Somewhere I found a formula for calculating the table height based on the users height and a mock up made of cardboard, as arm length plays in too. Can't seem to find that link presently.

[John Thompson]

After re-reading my post and Cliff's post.. I don't see anything that indicated letting the glue cure from either of us. I would personally do no more than two legs.. a total of 4 individual pieces at once. I advocate getting it on and getting it clamped which is simple to do if the pieces are sitting in the clamps before glue-up.

By doing as I suggested using a 10-15 minute open time glue.. two of them would take no more than 3 minutes from start to finish. I could probably do all four in the open time but... I want maximum pressure on the stock and I would consider all at once to thick to really compress well. Maybe it would be fine to all 4 but.. I have no deadlines to meet and act accordingly.

But.. the amount of time I indicated which is around 3 minutes should not in any circumstance be long enough for the glue to cure before the clamps get shut tight on the pieces so... maybe I misunderstand what you mean about dis-agreeing about letting it cure?

Regards...

[Mark Berenbrok]

Like Peter, I'm also puzzled about how a 6/4 board can be ripped to 1 5/8" and glued so you get a piece of material that's 3" x 3".

Math issues aside, it sounds like you're face-gluing your material. Have you jointed the faces and sent everything through a thickness planer to insure the stock is straight, flat, and clean?

A picture of the problem piece would help.

[Greg Ware]

Thanks for the comments and advise. I was able to check a couple pieces with a moisture meter today and found on the 6/4 6" wide boards 23% near the center and just over 11% on the outside. I am going to let it sit for another week and try again and let you know what happens. It's impressive how much knowledge and experience there is here on SMC and how everyone is so willing to share. After reading everyone's comments, I think I am experiencing more than one problem: a moisture problem with the wood, and a big question with the glue. Will the humidity, or lack thereof, have make it set that much faster. Here in Utah the last week it has been about 10-14%, with the month of June one of the wettest on record with rain almost daily. So we went from one extreme to the other.

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it.

Greg