Setting up in a mall kiosk

[Bret Gordon]

http://tinyurl.com/mobx9f

Great article...thanks for sharing, Dave!

[Rodne Gold]

Your demand estimates might be a little off.
There is often a wide gap tween what ppl say they would have done or do and getting them to actually pull the trigger.
In the 10+ yrs I have been laser engraving , with literally many 1000's of customers ...have never ever been asked to engrave an ipod , cell or laptop.

[Tim Bateson]

I agree with Rodney. Such research is a waste of time. People love my work, but all of that talk only results in a fraction of percentage in real work.
In your business model think about it, a person general owns a cell phone, maybe one laptop, and maybe an ipod. Once engraved, where's your new business? You have a good idea as these are very good income makers, but no repeat business & that is what you want to aim for. Repeat customers is were your reliable income will come from.

Another note: Only some laptops & cell phones can be engraved. Others don't engrave so well.

[Dave Johnson29]

Great article...thanks for sharing, Dave!

Try renting a docu-movie called StartUp.com

Kaleil Isaza the Entrepreneur's Entrepreneur with unbeatable energy, enthusiasm and vision. A great idea dragged to it's knees by "let's play it safe," and other mysteries from those around him.

I love the old adage, "behold the tortoise for he only makes progress with his neck stuck out."

[Dan Hintz]

There is often a wide gap tween what ppl say they would have done or do and getting them to actually pull the trigger.

And how! Over the years I have seen (at best) 35% of the people who say they absolutely "must have" something actually part with cold hard cash. Take any of your numbers and divide them by four... then, and only then, will you have a reasonable assessment of what you may accomplish in sales.

[Dave Johnson29]

35% of the people who say they absolutely "must have" something actually part with cold hard cash.

I must be doing something wrong then. I approach things from the other end. I think of a concept then make, then sell them. I **never** ask anyone what they think of stuff. Perhaps arrogant but my feeling is that if there is something I need, use or want then someone else will want it too.

Seems to have worked for the past 30 years. I must admit that during the first few days of getting my laser going I did show and ask people what they thought. I got such a range of answers that few if any were of any help.

The laser was such a new concept for me I had no idea what I could do with it. Fortunately shortly after that I found the 'creek. I then decided on what I wanted to do, made a bunch and placed them on sell or return.

Many years back I made some competition equipment machined from aluminum and anodized a bright red. I got asked could I do them in blue. The more I said "yes" to colors, the more colors I had to stock. I finally realized that asking people what they wanted was not the best thing for business. I adopted Henry Ford's approach and "any color you like as long as it is black."

Stock dropped to one color and sales climbed. Never ask what some else thinks of what you think is right. You will go nuts trying to please most or all of them. A lot of successful selling is about getting the customer to want what you have and not what they may like.

Do you now what the single most effective sales pitch line is in the US? (maybe other Countries too, but I understand the average US buyer's mindset)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"We are selling a lot of these!"

[Scott Shepherd]

I agree with Dan and Rodney. When we talked about going into laser engraving, we had commercial business owners we personally knew tell us they would move their work over to us. These were people that already were using engravers that were taking advantage of them on pricing. We told them we could do them for less, deliver sooner, and do a better job. They were very excited.

Got the laser, called them all, said "We're up and running now". Never saw the first job from any of them. They all continued to use their current suppliers, pay the higher prices, wait longer for delivery, and have less quality. I've talked to them all over the last 2-3 years now many times. Never saw a penny from any of them.

We've even used their services in hopes to gain their business. Didn't work. Never happened.

Now, I believe it when I see the PO number.

Phones and computers. Wow.....that's a tough one. What do you do when they come up with a new coating on the next model phone that doesn't engrave well? Or when the power goes off in the middle of engraving a $2500 Macbook Pro laptop? You can't run it again. You could run it again from the bottom up, but it'll always be a tell tale line where the two sessions start and end.

These aren't things that might happen, they are things that will happen. It's just a matter of time.

[Dave Johnson29]

I was getting a curry ready to simmer for a couple of hours and having a beer and it occurred to me. (beer wisdom??? ) We come from totally different business backgrounds. I have always designed and built stuff and sold it. Most of the people here were and are dependent on chasing work from people or having someone come to them to do work for them.

It is a totally different mindset but one which I think should be broadened to give more wiggle room in approaching entrepreneurial issues. My thinking is entirely different to most of the people here and that is why I have so much trouble with the nay-sayers.

My attitude to business still holds though, find that niche and work it. Worry about different coatings if and when they happen as they may not happen. Or maybe they get even better coatings to engrave. Why would you only consider things getting worse and not better?

Bear in mind also, the OP has his day job and this is essentailly a throw away issue. He has already stated he is prepared to take the risk. Another old adage, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." I still say, Bret, go for it.

As to power outages a prudent person, and I count myself among those, has UPS everywhere. My laser and computer for it, will run for 25 minutes at full load on the current battery back up. I also have a stand by generator with a panel switch to cover the fridge (beer), freezer 100+lb of frozen meat etc and the computers in the office and workshop.

If I do not get power back in about 10 minutes I crank up the generator. I am not talking big bucks here either a 6500W generator is under $600 bucks. Panel switch around $200. That keeps that $2,500 laptop job pretty safe. For UPS I uses a wattage rating large enough for the stuff I need to keep going then add more batteries in parallel for greater duration. Currently I have 5 x 350W UPS all with extra batteries.

OK, so a generator is not practical in a Mall, but a UPS with supplemmental batteries is just basic common sense no matter where the machine is located.

We seem to have strayed a long ways from setting up in a Mall although I did mention "Mall" 3 times in this posting.

OK, back to stirring the curry instead of the group.

[Tim Bateson]

...Bear in mind also, the OP has his day job and this is essentially a throw away issue. He has already stated he is prepared to take the risk. Another old adage, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." I still say, Bret, go for it...

Dave you can not be serious I thought the point of Bret asking for advice was to prevent him from doing something foolish?

I do agree Bret should pursue his dream, but with much more caution. In this economy, few people have the type of money we're talking about here to throw away. Nothing I've heard so far sounds realistic even in a best case scenario.

NOW... having said that... IF Bret comes up with a new idea to drive business, AND has a SOLID business plan (solid as in realistic), AND can afford to take the chance, then by all means I think he should go for it.

[Joe Baker]

Have you ever worked retail? I would rather bang my head against a brick wall. Wholesale or business to business is the only way to go. If you are going to be sucessful customers NEED to have what you are selling. If they dont need it you are going to drown and get mentally beat up every day. I have only had my laser 2 months. I got into this as an add on service to an 8 year old business. Nothing wrong with going after what you want but think about if people need what you are offering.

[Rodne Gold]

I dont think my business is any different to yours Dave we design awards and market a range , we also do custom designs and chase other work.
I deal with both wholesale , B2B and with retail customers...this still doesnt colour my thinking in this particular case.
This mall/laptop thing isn't an "entrepreneur" type business...the concept is not new, there is no special angle here , its been done and been done again and again..no new novel concept... just one of many doing the same thing , chasing the same market.
The OP will have to do about $3-400 a day TO to just break even without any salary or profit and around 700 a day to make a small salary for their "employee" and even more to make a decent profit for themselves. Lets say $850 a day minimum , thats at least 25-30 high cost engravings per day.
Even at that level , return on investment is not going to be anywhere near exciting.

I don't think it's right to offer encouragement and say go for it without severe reservations...treat this as if it were your own money
Here's the rub..would you or anyone else here invest money in this plan? ...I wouldnt even think of it...so if that makes me a naysayer or less than enthusiastic..so be it.

[Zvi Grinberg]

... My idea would focus on engraving laptops and cell phones -- something that would carry basically no inventory, needs high foot traffic, and can be done while the customer waits. This is why I've focused in on the mall kiosk.

Assuming that you do decide for a kiosk at a mall, I would suggest that you would not start before you thoroughly train and practice.

You need to be fast with Corel, wizard with macros, ready with templates, learn how to build jigs (and prepare many of them in advance).

You cannot even hope to be successful in a "While You Wait" business unless you become an expert.

Cell phones are tiny objects that need to be marked in precise areas. They usually have organic shapes and sometimes it's hard to find a level planar face without a jig.
Then there is the trial and error for the correct location or size.
And I did not even start to consider the different colors and materials of the items, and their laser effects.

Not only you get only one shot for each item, you get just one chance for success when you start a business such as you describe.
You must be presented at your best there, from minute one.

In addition to all these, the person that operates such a kiosk must be capable to handle not only the laser job efficiently. There's the customer attention, managing the fast business transactions and minding queues (hopefully) at your front desk.
Technical distraction (or inexperience) does not help in these situations.

It won't work without practice. Whatever your decison would be.

I am selling laser machines.
I saw customers, I witnessed success and failures.
I should know.

[Mike Null]

In 11 years I have engraved one computer and one cell phone.

If I were a banker I wouldn't advance a penny for this idea.

I have spent many years in the retail business, but in the engraving business I do all I can to avoid retail customers. Why? Because You can lose all your profit in the time it takes them to make up their mind. I'm not joking--today I send retail type customers to a young fellow who is just getting started in the engraving business--I just don't have time for them.

That means while your employee is trying to close a sale others will just walk away rather than wait.

[Scott Shepherd]

Dave, I don't think anyone here is being a naysayer. I certainly don't read it that way. What I said, and what I read, is based on reality. I love to dream and dream big. But what's the number one issue with small businesses? Capital. It takes money to make money. And if you are signing a lease from day one that will give someone else $48,000 a year, you better have a truck full of cash stuffed away somewhere.

The "coating" question was one meant to generate thought. Just about every year, someone comes out with some new finish on a phone. If they go to metal backs as some companies have done, will you be spraying Cermark from an airbrush in the mall? No way, ever. Could that cause you problems? Sure it can. Is that a real issue? You bet it is. Will it happen? I have no idea, but to pretend it's not even a possibility is not practical. You better "What if" it to death if need be.

If it's truly a brilliant idea and there is a need, then once you offer up all the "what if's", then you're plan will still be standing.

I don't consider myself a naysayer, but I do consider myself a realist. We just signed a lease for a 2,300 sq ft. space, and I can tell you, it was for a fraction of the cost of that kiosk. In fact, I could buy 2 lasers and pay my rent for just the cost of that kiosk.


For less than $3,000 a month, you could find a local cell phone store and set up next to them or a few stores away and partner with them.

Follow your dream, but do it responsibly.

I engraved 1 laptop (it was mine and broken), and I've never engraved a phone or been asked to. My local relatives own about 10 ipods between them all, and never once has anyone asked me to engrave one of those either.

[Dan Hintz]

On my 35% number...

My LED business was approached from a somewhat unique perspective. I'm a geek. I like lights. I make what I want, and if someone else happens to want one of the same, so much the better... I get to distribute my R&D financials through someone else's pocket book. My first product, a set of full-color LEDs for lighting up an S2000's windscreen, was created because I wanted it. When I realized others wanted it, I turned around and sold 50+ kits within the first couple of months. Animated taillights? Same deal... I wanted them, but it turns out others did, too.

I had 180+ people approach me for those windscreens when I first announced I would put together a kit for sale. They all clamored for it, telling me how cool it was and how much thay had to have it, so I tooled up to make several hundred... and sucked any chance of profit down the drain when 65% of those orders were never followed up with payments. I made that mistake once, and only once.

I still run my LED business in roughly the same way... making toys that I want and letting others have access to them... though I do admit to making certain items general enough that they can be used in vehicles I don't own. It has worked reasonably well for me, but I wouldn't base a laser business off of the model if I intended to make any money off of it. As it stands, the laser currently sits idle more than 95% of the time as I am still trying to find the time to insert it into my business model. I have no qualms about such a high dead time, and it was expected before I ever wrote the check for it. The amount of dead time will eventually change, but I'm in no rush.