Thought on the Stanley "Sweet Heart"

[Steff Pace]

Not the Bedrock 4 1/2 type 11 I was bidding on!!! She finally went for $285!!!! For that, I'd buy a LN!!! Heck with history, I want a good working smoother!

[jerry nazard]

Is the economy so bad that the prices realized for old planes dropping?

jim

Jim,

My feeling is that the recent prices on Ebay are just plain weird: all over the place. You should, however, be able to pick up a Bailey #4, 5, and 7 in good condition for $100 or less including shipping. Three planes for the price of one Wood River.

[Mike Henderson]

Jim,

My feeling is that the recent prices on Ebay are just plain weird: all over the place. You should, however, be able to pick up a Bailey #4, 5, and 7 in good condition for $100 or less including shipping. Three planes for the price of one Wood River.

Wow, if you can get a #4, a #5, AND a #7 for $100 including shipping, the prices on old Stanley planes have really fallen. A good #7 used to go for maybe $60 without shipping (I paid $65 without shipping for a SW #7, type 13). The #4 and #5 were less but a good example of each would go for $35 - $40 without shipping. These would be planes from the "good years", with rosewood knob and tote, and with all original parts - and in decent condition.

And shipping on each would be $10 - $15, probably more for the #7.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

Wow, if you can get a #4, a #5, AND a #7 for $100 including shipping, the prices on old Stanley planes have really fallen. A good #7 used to go for maybe $60 without shipping (I paid $65 without shipping for a SW #7, type 13). The #4 and #5 were less but a good example of each would go for $35 - $40 without shipping. These would be planes from the "good years", with rosewood knob and tote, and with all original parts - and in decent condition.

And shipping on each would be $10 - $15, probably more for the #7.

Mike

I think all together a #4, #5 and a #7 came to less than $100 for me. All with shipping from eBay, but remember, my tendency is to hang out on the bottom of the price pool. Got a second #5 for $10 at an estate sale.
My best find still is a #4-1/2 (type 6) for $30 in an antique mall.

Heck, this reminds me there is a pile of parts to make another #4 out in my shop. Just what I need.

Here is a deal with 4 planes, #3, #5, #6 & #7 with a buy it now that would come to $182.50 with shipping. Item No. 170355012541.

If you ask me, the guy is asking too much. That is just my opinion as a confirmed low bidder. Well, sometimes if something is really wanted I will go a little higher.

jim

[jerry nazard]

Jim,

My favorite score was a Millers Falls #10 (4 1/2) for $10.50 in like new condition. I saw one go recently for $219. The most I have paid for a Stanley was $65 for a type 11 #8C.

[Cliff Polubinsky]

Jeff,

Take a look at the corresponding Wood River. I was comparing the Stanley 60 1/2 and the Wood River model at Woodcraft Saturday and the one thing I noticed is the Stanley had much more slop in the blade adjustment. Almost 2 turns before the blade started to move. The Wood River was much tighter. I don't know if this carries over to the smoothers but it would be worth checking out.

Cliff

[Jeff Monson]

Guys thanks for all the advice, I did check on ebay and found alot of #4 stanley planes, but how do you know what you are getting?? They just look really old, so are you all saying that any old stanley is a great plane? There must be a point at which they went from good to bad so how does one tell?

[John Keeton]

This would be a great opportunity for some of our "rust rehabilitators" (Jim, Jerry, Mike and others) to list the "10 most important things to look for when one is contemplating the purchase of an old plane." The list may need to be longer, and obviously, much of this would require personal examination and that is not possible on the bay. But, it may be helpful to others.

[jerry nazard]

To a large extent, you are buying a "pig in a poke" when you purchase off the bay. However, in the case of Bailey planes, you are not risking serious amounts of money. Most vendors have a return policy, and all vendors want to get a positive feedback review from you.

You should familiarize yourself with the process of dating planes (lots of good content on the web). Look over the pictures carefully, avoid planes that are cheap or obviously unusable, and bid accordingly. To get an idea of the general going rate on a specific plane, mark a number of similar items "to watch" and then review and compare the final sale amounts.

And, don't forget to be nice to your mail carrier: planes are usually shipped US Mail, and your letter carrier is going to be lugging those flat rate boxes up to your door every day!

-Jerry

[Jim Koepke]

Guys thanks for all the advice, I did check on ebay and found alot of #4 stanley planes, but how do you know what you are getting?? They just look really old, so are you all saying that any old stanley is a great plane? There must be a point at which they went from good to bad so how does one tell?

This would be a great opportunity for some of our "rust rehabilitators" (Jim, Jerry, Mike and others) to list the "10 most important things to look for when one is contemplating the purchase of an old plane." The list may need to be longer, and obviously, much of this would require personal examination and that is not possible on the bay. But, it may be helpful to others.

Well, I don't know about ten things... Here are seven from earlier this year:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=103020

Everyone's milage may vary. One of the things that people should be careful of is one of the things I have looked for in the past. Poor listing information and fuzzy pictures can kill an auction. When I have bought planes for spare parts, finding a listing that looks unattractive can be a money saver.

A couple of my "parts" planes turned into great users. One of them was a #5 that was from what must have been a new seller. The pictures were terrible. My main interest was for the knob and tote. The seller was contacted to make sure those were OK. A tote and knob are usually in the $20 range. The bidding closed at $10. With shipping it was $16 and change. When it arrived the person had sent it parcel post. The shipping cost them more than what I had paid them by less than a dollar. I still feel sorry for them. I did contact them and they chalked it up to experience.

One of the places a plane will suffer from misuse is around the mouth. Many sellers do not post good pictures of this area. Ask for them and ask about cracks and particularly about cracks, chips and rust around the mouth.

Planes on eBay are like busses in the city. If you miss one, there will be another coming along soon.

I remember one time starting to comment on an eBay plane auction. It was a #5-1/2 (type 9). I ended up bidding and winning with the total cost being decent. It did have a problem that was repairable, but when bottom fishing for deals, one has to be ready, willing and able to deal with a problem or two.

Maybe since I am not in the market for a plane currently I should troll eBay and pick a few auctions on which to comment.

jim

[David Keller NC]

"Guys thanks for all the advice, I did check on ebay and found alot of #4 stanley planes, but how do you know what you are getting?? They just look really old, so are you all saying that any old stanley is a great plane? There must be a point at which they went from good to bad so how does one tell?"

The answer to the question "are you all saying that any old stanley is a great plane" is absolutely not. Many of them have been badly abused in their lifetime, and will have defects that take a fair bit of experience to know how to correct, or may be uncorrectable without some pretty fancy nickel welding (cracks to the cast iron). The difficulty is the format of e-bay. Many of these problems are obvious - a missing sidewall or a busted tote, but many of them are not - I've seen quite a few stanleys that had cracks that would be exceptionally difficult to photograph.

But as was mentioned, you're not putting a whole lot of money into it, though getting a bum one on the first go-round will make the whole transaction by the time you get a good one a fair bit less of a bargain than it seems at first.

But there are some alternatives. The first is to contact your local chapter president of the MWTCA (Mid West Tool Collectors Association). Most will know someone local that either deals in Stanley tools and has a good reputation, or is a big collector that occasionally sells off tools that are superb users, but have detractions for a collector - a replaced blade, for example, re-jappaning, or refinished wood. The advantage here is that the individual will have a local reputation that you'll likely hear about before you contact him. Moreover, you'll get to hold the tool in your hand and examine it closely before you fork over the dough. Many of these same individuals will be very willing to give you a lot of info about old tools in general and Stanely tools in particular.

You can also buy from a dealer. You will pay more for it, but you'll get it from someone that has an established (and good) reputation. One such dealer with such a reputation is Lee Richmond at The Best Things. Another is Patrick Leach (Supertool). Both really know their stuff when it comes to antique tools.

Finally, as to your original question - I've Lie Nielsens, Lee Valleys, Antique Stanleys, and British planes such as Norris, Spiers and Mathieson. I use all of these in my shop, and I've recently gotten a look at both WoodRiver and the new Stanleys. Based on the examples I was shown, I would not buy either - there were too many rough edges for the money that was asked. In my opinion, the most bang for the buck when it comes to planes is a Lie-Nielsen or a Lee Valley, and I put them ahead of antique Stanleys by a fairly wide margin (I own a couple of dozen old Stanleys, so this opinion is not based on just one plane).

However, I will say that the old stanelys do in fact work fairly well if you get a good one, and their performance, in my opinion, is substantially elevated by a replacement Hock blade. Where they pale a bit in comparison to a Lie-Nielsen or a Lee Valley is ease of adjustment, fit and finish of the frog (many will benefit from adjustment with a file), and precision of the mouth-closing mechanism.

Generally speaking, you're unlikely to lose very much money with either a Lie-Nielsen, a Lee Valley, or an old Stanley. In the case that you decide planes are not for you, you can resell it for most of your money.

[Jeff Monson]

The answer to the question "are you all saying that any old stanley is a great plane" is absolutely not. Many of them have been badly abused in their lifetime, and will have defects that take a fair bit of experience to know how to correct, or may be uncorrectable without some pretty fancy nickel welding (cracks to the cast iron). The difficulty is the format of e-bay. Many of these problems are obvious - a missing sidewall or a busted tote, but many of them are not - I've seen quite a few stanleys that had cracks that would be exceptionally difficult to photograph.

But as was mentioned, you're not putting a whole lot of money into it, though getting a bum one on the first go-round will make the whole transaction by the time you get a good one a fair bit less of a bargain than it seems at first.

But there are some alternatives. The first is to contact your local chapter president of the MWTCA (Mid West Tool Collectors Association). Most will know someone local that either deals in Stanley tools and has a good reputation, or is a big collector that occasionally sells off tools that are superb users, but have detractions for a collector - a replaced blade, for example, re-jappaning, or refinished wood. The advantage here is that the individual will have a local reputation that you'll likely hear about before you contact him. Moreover, you'll get to hold the tool in your hand and examine it closely before you fork over the dough. Many of these same individuals will be very willing to give you a lot of info about old tools in general and Stanely tools in particular.

You can also buy from a dealer. You will pay more for it, but you'll get it from someone that has an established (and good) reputation. One such dealer with such a reputation is Lee Richmond at The Best Things. Another is Patrick Leach (Supertool). Both really know their stuff when it comes to antique tools.

Finally, as to your original question - I've Lie Nielsens, Lee Valleys, Antique Stanleys, and British planes such as Norris, Spiers and Mathieson. I use all of these in my shop, and I've recently gotten a look at both WoodRiver and the new Stanleys. Based on the examples I was shown, I would not buy either - there were too many rough edges for the money that was asked. In my opinion, the most bang for the buck when it comes to planes is a Lie-Nielsen or a Lee Valley, and I put them ahead of antique Stanleys by a fairly wide margin (I own a couple of dozen old Stanleys, so this opinion is not based on just one plane).

However, I will say that the old stanelys do in fact work fairly well if you get a good one, and their performance, in my opinion, is substantially elevated by a replacement Hock blade. Where they pale a bit in comparison to a Lie-Nielsen or a Lee Valley is ease of adjustment, fit and finish of the frog (many will benefit from adjustment with a file), and precision of the mouth-closing mechanism.

Generally speaking, you're unlikely to lose very much money with either a Lie-Nielsen, a Lee Valley, or an old Stanley. In the case that you decide planes are not for you, you can resell it for most of your money.

David,

great info I've weighed the opinions from others and my own, I ordered a Lie Nielsen #4 1/2 smoother, I do own a L/N block plane and I love it. I dont mind spending money on quality tools, I just thought maybe the new stanleys were on par with a L/N for less money

[David Keller NC]

"I just thought maybe the new stanleys were on par with a L/N for less money."

Hmm - I'll spare you the "you get what you pay for" thought.

What I suspect is going on with the new Stanleys, and for that matter with the Woodrivers, is more than just different views based on different individuals reviewing them. While the "different strokes for different folks" is always a factor, I suspect there's a degree of quality control that may be lacking because they are new, and possibly very new to the factories that are making them. It's not at all uncommon for this to be the case, even with really high quality companies like Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, and for that matter, Toyota. After a period of time with reports of problems from the field, companies usually start inspecting production more closely, and tightening up the processes that lead to the non-uniformity.

One thing to think about, if it takes a little of the sting to the pocketbook out of it, is that this is a lifetime tool purchase. Unlike many of the more expensive things in an average woodshop, like solid-carbide router bits, Forrest table saw blades, and even battery powered portable power tools, the plane you ordered will not 1) go out of style, 2) get used up, except for maybe the blade, and that will still likely take your lifetime and 3) rapidly depreciate. In fact, particularly if Lie-Nielsen were to go out of business because of some catastrophe, the plane you ordered would appreciate rapidly in value. A good example of this is planes that Lie-Nielsen produced for a short period of time and either modified or discontinued. A #9 miter plane with a bronze body and walnut or cherry infill easily fetches $1000 on e-bay, even in this economy. And the bronze 2006 anniversary 4-1/2s fetch well over that because they're sought after and only 400 were produced for the US.

[Billy Chambless]

Unlike many of the more expensive things in an average woodshop, like solid-carbide router bits, Forrest table saw blades, and even battery powered portable power tools, the plane you ordered will not 1) go out of style, 2) get used up, except for maybe the blade, and that will still likely take your lifetime and 3) rapidly depreciate.

I couldn't agree with this more, and it echos how I've been looking at tool purchases more and more. With most $300 power tools the worry is how long it will last; with a $300 hand tool the worry is which grandchild to will it to.

I have a planer that cost about what a LN 4 1/2 does; I don't expect to have to deal with it in my will.

[James Scheffler]

Guys thanks for all the advice, I did check on ebay and found alot of #4 stanley planes, but how do you know what you are getting?? They just look really old, so are you all saying that any old stanley is a great plane? There must be a point at which they went from good to bad so how does one tell?

I recommend this site: http://www.workingtools.biz/

The owner (Tom) is a bit of a character, hence the title "Akbar and Jeff's Tool Hut," but I've bought a few tools from him and they've been great. He seems to specialize in solid working-quality tools. Item descriptions are very accurate, so you know what you're getting even though there are no pictures. I find the prices are fair. Maybe a little more than e-bay, but he knows what he's doing and will stand behind the tools he sells.

I bought a No. 4 "Frankenplane" (mostly Type 9 IIRC) from him a few years ago for $30 or $35 and it's actually become my favorite one. He should also have several "original" examples for a little more money.

It looks like the list hasn't been updated in a while, but you can just send an e-mail and ask what he currently has in stock.

Good hunting!
Jim