A Trip to the Sawmill, or...

[Wes Bischel]

Well, I will admit I am not an "in the head" kinda person. I need to write it down and see it - always have - then it's no problem to calculate.
As far as the students go, this course sounds like an elective - a throw away course in their eyes. Unfortunately the teacher is treating it as a throw away and the students follow suit. I would suspect they do not know any of the basics of woodworking and were just expected to make something cool.

In school I had a furniture history course - poorly taught as well. We had a similar "project". I made one corner with dovetails - machine made (router and jig). The professor was ecstatic he had never seen a student make dovetails with a router at home (versus a production shop). Granted this was 20 years ago before all of the jigs hit the market widespread but as the educator he should have known better. I shrugged it off at the time, but look back at it now with a better understanding of the education system.

As far as the architects go - as with everything there are the good ones and the bad ones. I've spent almost 20 years developing building products and can tell you not many have the skills that our own Mark has where wood is concerned - nor would I expect them to since wood is only one aspect of their skill set.

Wes

[Tom Sweeney]

I don't think it is knowing the calculation for BF that is the problem - it is that kids are entering colleges without basic math skills.
I live in the wealthiest & fastest growing(maybe 2nd) county in the state of PA. Admittedly I live in the poorest area of the county (still not poor) & definitely the worst school district (one of a dozen on the state watch list).

I hate to say this but my 11th grade daughter, who has never not been on honor role) has almost no grasp of basic math. This also carries over to ALL of her friends. They could not figure out our 6% sales tax if their life depended on it, without a calculator. I finally have her understanding the quick & dirty work around for simple percentages - like 10%, 20% but not 10 minutes ago she had to guess incorrectly 4 times before she came up with the correct answer for 18% of $10.
One of her best friends was top in her class last year (11th grade for her) & while she is very bright and has the ability to do more complicated math equations than I can. .... She still has to think hard about making change at Church fundraisers. She scored very high on her SAT's last year so something is definately out of wack

We have tried to do everything we can, to no avail, to insure she gets a good education. We attended every teacher conference, back to school night, scheduled 1 on 1's with teachers & counselors, etc... She is not one of these kids that get a kick out of learning so she just does what she needs to get good grades. I have had conversations with her and teachers of her's where I was told she did not have to do any extra research or learning over and above what they teach her. Neither my wife nor I were exactly wizs at school so we can only personally do so much.

It is not only math that is the problem either they know very little about history & even less of geography. I think they are taught higher-level info on an OK basis but if you don't have the basics how can you retain what you are taught?

On a positive note - some of these kids, my daughter included, are truly amazing. So much more mature and indeed better people than my friends & I were at this age. Every year I go on a mission trip to Appalachia, with my Church. It is geared towards being a youth project, to get them into volunteering & helping others. I had never hung out with a group of today’s teens until I took my first trip 6 years ago. I was completely blown away by every one of the kids down there & have been ever since. So all is not lost for the future - I just wish the educational system would be up to the standards that these kids deserve.

As to teachers being underpaid: Median household income in my zip code is $49,649. If I understand the census correctly household income is everyone living in the house. Avg. Teacher salary in my district is $46,225 (school year '01 - '02). Plus if needed they can take summer jobs for the 1/4 of the year they don't have to work.
Now if you are a truly great teacher who both cares about your students & has the skills necessary to properly educate them then by all means you should be making a 6 figure income. In 11 years of my daughters schooling I can easily count the teachers who qualify on 1 hand. Sorry but that's my personal experience. There have been numerous others who were good, caring people however they did not do a good job of educating. It's not just the teachers fault - this is already way too long to go into the adminstrative problems (you wouldn't believe it anyway) we've had.

Sorry for the soapbox but the greatest regret in my life is that I could not afford to give my daughter a better education, so this kindof ticks me off, if you couldn't tell.

[Doug Jones]

Good story Bill,,

However IMO the problem of basic math skills (of which I lack) of todays younger generation starts well before they even reach high school. For an example, my daughter who was in 6th grade last year was required to have a calculator (a simple one) as one of her school supplies, and was allowed to use it for math problems and homework. I would let her use it at home but only after I saw that she attempted the problem on paper first.

They know that 1+1=2,,, but do they know why or how???

[Bill Grumbine]

But, like Jim, I think we need to give those girls a bit of a break. Stefan

Hi Stefan

I did not really come down on the girls for not knowing what a board foot is. That is the professor's fault, who obviously did no preparation whatsoever for this trip. Not only did they no nothing of how to buy their wood, they were running around in sandals for the most part - not too safe in a barn full of lumber, and in our litigious society, guess who would bear the brunt of a miss step?

I know all the arguments for not being proficient at certain things, and I certainly am not proficient at a lot of things, but it seems to me that people entering a discipline like architecture should be able to do simple multiplication and division. How would you respond if a kid showed up for your band but could not play scales?

There are plenty of failures here to go around. The professor is failing to properly prepare these students. The kids have failed, although maybe unknowingly, to take care of basic knowledge. That does not obviate the failure. The parents have probably failed to be as involved as they should have been in the education of their children. Big houses, two new cars, and lots of other material things get in the way of that all too often.

I actually had a lot of fun with these kids, and not at their expense. I taught them in the style which I have been teaching children (and they are children) for the past 16 years. They all paid attention, and hopefully they will retain what they learned.

Bill

[Bill Grumbine]

I think you're reading too much into this....
If I had been in that class, I don't think I would've learned those formulas from you either. Those bare mid sections would've occupied 100% of my brain. Jay

Hi Jay

I think the kids were bright, just not prepared, and for that there is no excuse on the part of the professor, who by her own report had been there numerous times. I also think that they have probably led pampered lives, knowing the school, its costs, prestige, etc. And as far as those midsections go, I would be a liar if I said they weren't a distraction! But I pressed on for the good of the woodworking community.

I have to tell this very funny story - funny to me, since we are talking about distractions of this type. A number of years ago I walked into our guild meeting a bit early to check out the show and tell, talk with my buddies, etc. One man had brought his daughter along with him - his very buxom teenage daughter, who was dressed in some very revealing clothes. Now whan I say buxom, she was exceedingly buxom.

Anyway, I had no idea that the two were related, and I had exchanged a few words with the young lady in the course of walking about. As I paused to look around the room her father approached me and we began a conversation. She joined in a moment later, and he introduced her as his daughter. His very next words were, and this is an exact quote:

I want you to take a look at this chest I brought with me tonight.

I thought I was going to die right there on the spot. My eyes were trying of their own volition to swivel over towards where his daughter stood smiling up at me, but I did not dare move my head even a fraction of an inch in her direction. I thought my head was going to explode if something did not happen quickly. Fortunately he turned away and said, "It is right over here." All I could think of was not looking at his daughter. I made it over to this old antique, and managed to get a strangled hoot out about it looking like a very nice chest, and that he should be proud to own it. I made my escape as quickly as possible, and avoided the girl until I could look her in the eye and not further down. Now that was a distraction.

Bill

[Tyler Howell]

Fortunately it is not everywhere....Almost, but not everywhere. The one thing my X and I agreed on was the value of a good education. When I couldn't stand those two another second we still sat down and read, applied math skills to the workshop, or science to the walk in the park. I'm truly blessed to have two daughters that have always had a hunger for knowledge and information. Didn't think the youngest was going to make it, but she has pulled it out and has a very creative mind.

The great thing is there are a bunch of sharp ones out there. I've had the pleasure of watching kids and friends prosper and grow into productive individuals making a contribution to our society. I sit quietly and watch daughters and buds engage in fascinating debate. On occasion I'll dare to join in and sometimes hold my own.

There is hope! Unfortunately the ones making a difference aren't getting the attention

PS Bill, I know you did the right thing. The kids picked up some valuable info from a skilled educator with practical experience . They also witnessed someone with no vested interest giving of his time and talents to help them achieve there goals. For most it may not register. I'm sure they all didn't even thank you. But those kind of lessons stick, and some pass them on. Besides they are really fun to look at as you have implied many times in your threads .

[thomas prevost]

Bill,
How would you like to be the guy in the yard that has to handle these problems everyday? The most fustrating thing is the guy with a zillion dollars of wood working equipment who comes in with a cut sheet from wood working magazines or purchased plans and wants boards exactly as on the cut sheet. 7" by 9 1/2' and another 4 1/4" by 5 1/4' etc. He can't understand you can get the same cuts from a stanard 8" by 10' board.They are a small annoyance compared to the guys who come in with great pictures of great projects they did with our wood. Cabinet makers are the best. "rail, rails, OH! a great door front". They just seem to have an eye for what a rough cut board will look like finished. Not that others don't. Give a turner a piece of firewood and he will give you the prettiest bowl going.

[Steve Clardy]

Well you did a fabulous job Bill. Did better than I probably would have.
If my brain could have reconized what you did I may have been able to get the boob, er board foot calculater going in my head.
But I probably would have been tongue tied, stumbling and bumbling, and would have been in the amazing ozone mode.

Steve

[larry merlau]

i commend you on the control you showed in the chest issue. i feel that the father had no idea of what he said and the other meaning it might inflict to some. i too have taught and shown my two daughters the importance of gettin the righ education and one of them was using your hands to do manual work, helped them realize that brain power is important. i didnt finish college becasue of other responsibilties that at the time i felt more important, regret that today some but it has al come out in the wash. i have two daughter with the right stuff and no midrifs showing and have an independant appitude as well. i am sure you gave tyhem girls the right approach and some of them will hang on to the wisdom. and as for the teachers of today some are still great teachers. if it wasnt for 2 specail teachers i had i wouldnt have had the chance to get in to college at all. so when i see others who can benifit from my small wisdom or experiences i always try to help out. that is just like this forum those involved are the cream of the crop. they al help out others and are glad to do so. we all need to continue that with all we come in contack with when we have the chance to help. and most of all show all the good points they have and support them to the fullest.

[Chris Padilla]

Bill said it already but the teacher makes or breaks the class they teach. It really is that simple. If the teacher doesn't care about the subject they are teaching, the students won't care either.

In college we had the world's worst professor teaching our statics and dynamics course from the College of Civil Engineering. I hated the course and learned zero from it and even sold my book back. Lately, I wish I would've at least kept the book as it would've been handy several times. All I can say is that my physics' course have filled in where that one left off.

Oh, the prof teaching it was new and brought in for all his research money. He would literally show up to class, open the book, and read it to us and then assign the problems at the end of the chapter...that is it.

[Donnie Raines]

See, i find that the problem lies more with the student then with the teacher. Sure..if you have a teacher that has no clue...that does not help. But, if an individual has the desire to(burning within ones self) to learn and to excel....then they will. Honestly...I hate math. I received C and C- throughout school...collage included(by the way...A's everywhere else.. ). But I did love buisness, history and science....and I find myself very fluid in many of those topics. Its all in the soul...most of which comes natural. Some feelings/behaviors are learned...no doubt. But I think it is an individual thing. Also, i dont find that it makes them stupid per say that they do not know math. I have had people show up for a application who brought no money or doucments that were requested(haveing been told to bring them only 1 hour before). and these are people in very "smart" jobs....no examples to be given for fear of offending some...

[Paul Downes]

I feel compelled to weigh in on this subject. The short answer is that now you know why we home school our kids.
In my opinion, the education system in this country is in shambles. This is not a problem of under paid teachers. This is a problem of a morally bankrupt system that is run by people with an agenda to preserve their idea of education at the expense of the kids it is supposed to serve. Every time you hear about poor scores on tests, you hear the old song and dance about the lack of funding. My local school scored tops in the state in science and math with 47% of the kids proficient in those areas. This was the brag of the school superintendent. I stood up and commented at this school board meeting that I wouldn’t be bragging about scores when OVER HALF OF THE STUDENTS WERE NOT PROFICIENT! There was a group of us opposed to the local school millage proposal and we were engaged in an attempt to defeat it. We subsequently got a letter from this Dr. of Education superintendent and after reading it we decided to correct his spelling and grammar and send it back to him. Needless to say he was not pleased with us. We also found numerous math errors in their proposal.
My oldest daughter has been struggling this past year with her 11th grade studies. She still hasn’t finished last year’s work. I sat down with her today and went over her work that is in arrears. (She should be starting 12th grade) I was amazed with the amount of work she was trying to complete. Way overboard! We were trying a different home school curriculum and we now have learned that it is very demanding. She has tested very high on her MEAP and ACT tests. I promised her that we would change to a more reasonable school curriculum. The bottom line is that employers seek her after because she can make change in her head, she shows up for work on time and, she is reliable and works hard. She dresses modestly and is respectful of those around her. Pretty simple.
The other thing you can do for your kids is throw the T.V. out. I have seen nothing but immoral crap on the tube these days. Most of the commercials are hedonistic and insulting to your intelligence. I get somewhat of a sadistic pleasure in sitting down with some kids and watching their favorite T.V. show and commenting about every moral discrepancy and illogical thing I see. I ask them, “Do you know any mothers or fathers who act like that?” The unfortunate consequence of watching T.V. a lot is that one becomes numb to poor programming and immoral behavior. The election news has provided plenty of opportunity to engage in this past time. Emotional arguments and outright lies are common. I want my kids to THINK. Challenge every statement. If they have no standard in life how can they make objective decisions? Morality is not a right of religion; it should be a national standard. You can almost conclude that the education establishment attempts to separate morality from the classroom with some misguided interpretation of the separation of church and state! The truth is that they teach their own version of ‘morality’ that is nothing less than amoral, or immoral.
Where I work we have hired 3 engineers in the last 3 years. One was very good and is doing quite well. He grew up on the farm and must have had good parents because he treats others well. Another one was somewhat intelligent, but was so amoral that her work suffered and she alienated all those who had to work with her. She got moved out. The last one scored very high in school and is a real nice person, but she is a complete zero in ability. She can’t remember simple instructions and can’t engineer the simplest of problems. I wouldn’t trust her to wire in a light bulb. She is going to leave us soon to become a production supervisor. I wish her well.
I can only conclude that we are in dire straights in this country when it comes to the product of our schools. We must be a failing civilization. GO HOME SCHOOLING!!!!!!

[Ian Barley]

Thanks Bill for an amusing story well told. It is a great example of the kind of practical knowledge that a life lived fully gives. I am sure that you left an impression on everybody that you took the time to help out.

One of the realities of youth is that when things take place in "unfamiliar" surroundings we don't necessary relate them to all of our knowledge. I guess I mean that maybe these kids didn't "have their game heads on". Maybe the same questions asked in the familiar surroundings of the classroom would have got completely different answers. I know for a fact that it took me until my mid twenties to start applying all of my life skills in all situations.

As far as numbers go, I think that many people have difficulty relating math to real life and even more don't realise how much they use math in real life.

The big gap I see in many people is the skill of estimating. And it is a skill. There seems to be a mental block that many people have with the idea that 144 and 150 can be near enough to each other to give a useful answer. I'm lucky that I find juggling numbers in my head easy and could divide 600 by 144 mentally, but wouldn't bother because experience of using estimation tells me that I don't need to. The important words in this paragraph are skill and experience. Its one of those things that you can't teach - you have to learn it.

I buy my lumber by the cubic metre and it is priced by the cubic foot. 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot - 12 board feet. 62807.484375 cubic inches in a cubic metre. 36.346923828125 Cubic Feet in a cubic metre. £12/ft3 (plus VAT @17.5%) for Oak Shorts. Anybody wanna play?? If I asked for 12 board feet in most timber yards over here they would not understand what I wanted.

Bill met a group of young kids on what sounds like a sunny day taking a trip to a place that they didn't go very often and doing something that they had probably never done before. While they where there they bumped into a nice guy who, because he has a strong personality, sound practical knowledge and relatively distinctive appearance, almost certainly left them a bit wiser at the end of the day than they were at the beginning. I think it takes a bit of a stretch to extrapolate that to the end of the world as we know it.

I think that this is a great thread which everybody can use to examine the way that we all teach and learn every day (In my book any day were you don't learn something is wasted and any day that you don't teach something is a missed opprotunity) . I hope that it does not go off into realms that bump it into the TOS of this site and cause it to be lost as a learning resource for all of us.

[Stefan Antwarg]

The way you describe your school district, it sounds like it is very poorly run. I can tell you that my school certainly isn't like that. You are making a lot of broad generalizations about the state of things. Sounds to me like you need to get out and research areas where the schools are run better. Of course, home schooling is a good option.

We subsequently got a letter from this Dr. of Education superintendent and after reading it we decided to correct his spelling and grammar and send it back to him. Needless to say he was not pleased with us. We also found numerous math errors in their proposal.

On the other hand, it doesn't sound like you are doing a whole lot to help.

Stefan

[Brad Hammond]

i just wanna say "thanx bill" , while i hope i have a little more cognitave ability related to the math such as you described. i KNOW i'm not alone in saying i was once a little creeker visiting the sawmill or lumber yard for the first time and being confused with board feet v linear feet, s2s v s4s, .............all that crap was cleared up by someone who took the time to explain it to me. someone like you!!!!
AND...... it's great folks like you that make this site what it is and i applaud you for taking the time and patience!!


thanx again!!!
brad