Old Cast Iron vs. New Hotness

[Porter Bassett]

I recently met an old fellow who as a hobby takes neglected old cast iron woodworking tools, restores them, and then sells them for not much more than enough to recoup what he put into them.

Needless to say, his own shop is full of fabulous old tools, and he's a big proponent of old quality tools instead of newer tools.

Well, he's got two old Atlas tablesaws that are coming down the pipe, and he's put it into my head that I ought to sell my Rigid contractor's saw (which I've been quite pleased with) and replace it with one (or both!) of those Atlas (built like a tank, he says).

What do you guys think? How much nicer is old cast iron? This Rigid is the only table saw I've ever done much with, if you don't count the Harbor Freight POJ that I started out with.

How accurate are those old style fences? I love being able to trust the fence and measurement gauge on my Rigid, knowing that once I've set it, the fence is parallel and at the indicated distance.

[george wilson]

I haven't seen any heavy duty Atlas saws,only the cheap little bench saws they made. Atlas generally made real bottom of the line machines,such as their lathes. Sears used to sell them. I had one in the early 70's,bought new. It was terrible since the bed would flex under any cut deeper than 1/32".

They did make a heavy duty 12" lathe,though,which was much better,though it still had a very small spindle bore.

Which class the saws you are seeing might fall into,I can't say unless you post copious pictures.

Generally speaking,I will say that older is usually better.BUT!!! NOT if there is serious wear on the internals. Also,some of the old fences were not good. They would move when you locked them. Delta is an example. Cheap,folded sheetmetal,and loose tolerances. There is about .014" slop in the old miter gauge grooves that I have measured. The newer miter gauges with adjustable sliding bars are a big improvement.

The old American machines,like Atlas lathes,and Delta machines also used a lot of potmetal handles and other components,that can crack. Old Atlas lathes used potmetal gears. Not good.

Newer machines have better technology in the grinding of their tables,too. Old tables were Blanchard ground,which is the cheapest level of grinding,and is only accurate to about .003" The grinding on new saws and jointers is much better.

These machines need to be posted to see what category they fall into.

[Tom Wassack]

Greetings from NC!
Porter,
Nice name by the way - since I have an old Porter jointer built sometime around WWII. Over the years I have replaced all my newer, Chi-waneze machinery with the older, vintage, American-made machinery and have been quite satisfied with their performance, maintenance, and accuracy. I have a late 70's Unisaw (I know 70's don't seem all that old, but its 30+ years) with the Uni-fence and the accuracy is outstanding. Simply hit the mark on the fence ruler with the cursor and make your cut - I never measure blade to fence with this saw. One of the real benefits of older machinery is the weight - which contributes to lack of vibration and smooth cuts. Parts can be an issue, but with groups such as OWWM.com and OWWM.org, a replacement or alternative part is usually available with this knowledgeable group.

Respectfully,
Tom Wassack
Asheboro, NC

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree with George, the Atlas machinery was low end stuff.

Although we tend to wax eloquent regarding older machinery, unless you're purchasing General, Poitras, Oliver etc,(Industrial machinery) you're buying hobby stuff from a time when hobby meant cheap.

Todays industrial machinery, (General, Felder, SCMI) etc is far better than industrial machinery from decades ago.

Older machinery can be upgraded with new fences, guards, etc, however there can be mechanical issues with old machinery that require expert (expensive) machine shop work.

You can find industrial machinery that's been well maintained, and lightly used if you look for it.

One aspect that isn't often considered is functionality and safety.

Much of the old machinery doesn't have suitable guards for todays standards, and face it, the North American table saw only does one thing well, rip.

Newer Euro type machinery provides performance, precision and safety that simply exceeds the capabilities of the older styled machinery.

That said, I do have an older Rockwell lathe at home that was made in Canada, like most of my shop machinery. It's old and simple, and spins wood, not much to improve........Oh wait, it has limited swing, low power, only 4 speeds.........Maybe I do "NEED" a new Oneway....LOL.

Regards, Rod.

[Vince Shriver]

In the 50's & early 60's Atlas saws were manufactured by the Clausing company. These are heavy accurate old iron - I have one that was built under the DeWalt name, and if it is the same saw (which I suspect it is), it would certainly be worth a close look. I send a PM regarding this saw. Vince

[Don Jarvie]

A big factor in determining whether Old iron is the way to go is you mechanical skill level. It's easy to by a new cabinet saw and follow the setup directions and your cutting. The draw back is new cabinet saws can run from 1000 to 2500 (Powermatic).

Old Unisaws, Walker Turners run from 200 up depending in the condition. You may have to rehab it (clean, new arbor bearings, etc) and while that is short money doing it may intimidate some.

I went from a Delta 1hp contractors saw to a Walker Turner with a 3hp and the difference is remarkable and the WT plus motor cost the same as the Delta.

[george wilson]

I had forgotten about the Clausing connection,which did make good heavy machinery. I've only seen 2 others in the 45 years I have had mine. Make sure yours will rip to the center of a sheet of plywood. That is the downfall compared to the Unisaw.You must have the table extensions to rip 24" wide.

I HAVE THE DEWALT made by clausing that you are apparently talking about. I bought it new in 1964,and would never sell it. I have mentioned before that my Dewalt is about 2X the weight of a Unisaw,and is an extremely smooth running saw. the fence is simple,and mine has never moved when I lock it. The fence is heavy,but is cast aluminum,so be sure it hasn't worn so it still doesn't move when you lock it. The part of the fence that rides on the front rails might be cast iron. I haven't looked. the actual fence is aluminum,possibly to minimize blade damage if you touch the blade on it.

One thing: the Dewalt has a 3/4" arbor. I can machine out my blades,but it can be a real problem if you aren't a machinist. I think you can order 3/4" arbor saw blades from Forrest. Check it out.

The worm gears that operate the tilting and lowering mechanism on my saw are nearly 2X the dia. of the Unisaw's same parts. Everything is oversize,and steel or cast iron. Mine has 3 drive belts. The Unisaw has 2. My arbor bearings are far apart,not bunched together like the Unisaw.

These saws were very nice,and heavy duty,but BE SURE they are in good,complete condition. I don't know about parts availability. Your rebuilder friend might.

Please be aware that even the best machines can be worn out if they've been used enough.If you find a real good one,it can't be beat.

[Porter Bassett]

They are both Atlas 3060, which appears to have been made from the mid 40s through the early 50s.

They have 5/8 arbor, and one of them has the table extensions.

This must not be the same saw you have -- there's no way it's bigger or heavier than a unisaw.

[george wilson]

Perhaps not. Awhile back there was a discussion about Atlas Clausing saws badged Dewalt. There was a picture. It was the same saw as I have,but it was badged DeWalt.

My saw weighs about 600#.

[Carroll Courtney]

Buy yourself and old Unisaw,go through it if its that old,put on a Biesmeyer fence and set it up with a "Good Blade" and it will cut,rip just as good as the expensive saws of the "new age".One area I do agree on, is the new lathe's with variable speed.New those are nice----Carroll

[Chip Lindley]

OLD table saws generally had deficient rip fences! One exception was the *original* Delta Unisaw's JetLock fence with the little knob up front which locked the fence to the rear rail solidly!

Bill Biesemeyer had an *idea* who's time had surely come! The T-Square fence made TS work a pleasure instead of an ordeal which personally may have helped *drive me to drink* in the '70s!

*OldArn* for the sake of old iron may or may not yield a very usable tool. Old CI jointers are an item of great interest! Most do not have a fence with adjustments nearly as good as even a current cheap ChiWan import! Once you set an old Crescent or Northfield fence at 90deg. Keep it there!!

Old CI bandsaws are a thing of beauty! Restoration is straight forward IF the machine is solid! Intregral motors are a sore point IF they are not running. Retro fitting is very possible if you have machinist capabilities.

[Glen Dickey]

I'll have to say, I really enjoy the older machinery. You can find some pretty nice stuff out there. There are some old machines that are junk too. I try and stick with the older industrial type machinery that comes out of schools and small shops. Most of the machines in my shop are ex school type machines. Guess it all depends on what your looking for. I started out buying basket cases, now I have found it cheaper to pay a little more and get a machine that's not all worn out. I am a machinist by trade so fixing up the old stuff is easy, but its also work too, and Id rather be cutting wood than making machinery parts on the weekends. If you can find an older machine that has been well cared for, or just needs minor work, it can be a great deal. I have paid more for a great used Oliver tablesaw than a new Unisaw, and I dont regret it one bit.
If you plan on doing woodworking as a life long hobby, or a career, I would highly suggest investing in the old industrial machines if you have the space. Once you set up a three phase converter, your world of choices expand. When I set up my old Oliver 12" tablesaw and tried it out, I never looked back. The old industrial stuff, as long as its in good condition, or restored, is a joy to use. Its rock solid, accurate, and dependable. Id stick with brands like Oliver, Yates, Fay & Egan, and such. Lots of these machines are going cheap right now due to the economy.
I will addmit though, I really do like some of the newer power tools too. The new miter saws, and cordless drills are great. I have some old routers and portable power tools, but I reach for my new stuff all the time.
Just when it comes to the stationary machines do I really like the old stuff I guess.

Glen

[glenn bradley]

I have a 1940's Delta Milwaukee DP (grandpa's, bought new) and a new Delta 17-950. The old arn is smoother and more solid even after a year or two of use (read sarcasm here). However, the table is only adequate, there is no table lift, the depth stop is clumsy but solid in design, the 'hold at depth' design is beautifully simple.

I have a 1950's Emerson TS that rivals anything under about $800 now-a-days but, the lack of refinements keep it stored for a future use as yet undetermined. I guess old arn is a mixed bag and you should examine each tool in its own right. Just 'cause its old, don't always make it better. . . but it sure is sometimes ;-)

[george wilson]

The arbor bearings on the old Unisaw are very close together,just side by side. This makes the blade easy to twist by hand. I don't feel that the spindle is solidly supported. Whenever I had a job in the past that needed extra close tolerances,I always had to go and use my old DeWalt.

My old DeWalt has bearings several inches apart,a much better design.