Chinese tools, and China (long)

[Mark Winlund]

There have been recent comments about Chinese tools and laser engravers. I would like to throw in my 2 cents... as an engraver and machinist with 35 years of experience, the landscape is constantly changing when it comes to imported Asian tools.

Much is made of the fact that currently, the laser tubes made in China are made of glass and water cooled. How long do you think this is going to last?

My shop is full of tools from everywhere in the world:

USA: Haas, Craftsman, Pexto, Chicago, Universal, Gorton, Xenetech
Germany: Deckel, Mahr, Hardinge
England: Myford grinders, Brierly cutter sharpener
Japan: Mitutoyo
France: New Hermes
Poland: Numerous machine shop tooling
Taiwan: Jet (large machinery, lots), Birmingham
China: numerous Harbor Freight, Enco
India: hand tools


All of the tools have done the job I needed done. The fit and finish may vary from Deckel (superb) to Indian (Horrible). Over the years, the quality of the Asian imports have gotten better. I am a frequent visitor of Harbor Freight. The quality varies from awful to a "flaming deal". You have to know your tools to be able to pick out the good ones. Years ago, it was all bad. Enco was a good example. When MSC bought them out, they were near bankruptcy. The quality is now very much better with only an occasional lemon.

Saying that all Chinese tools are junk is short sighted. Some are, some aren't. The Chinese have become an industrial power house in only a few short years. Their advantage is in the labor costs. Anyone that thinks they will not learn to control their quality is deluding themselves.... and they will still have the advantage of low labor costs. Would you live in a dormitory and work for $15 dollars a day? Millions of Chinese will.

The main advantage of engraving is that it can't be outsourced very well. We are still losing factories to the Chinese... all of those factories employed people that spent money on engraving, and are now unemployed. Guess what part of their budget they are going to cut first?

The cancer has now spread to big companies... in our area, Hewlett-Packard is just about gone... down to less than 1000 employees from 6000 just a few years ago. No more business from them. Oregon State University (another big customer) also has cut staff drastically. Departments that had 10 clerical staff now only have one or two. Good bye name badge orders. The athletic department often wants to pay only one half of what they used to pay for awards. It means if we want the work, we will be paying them to take our awards! Permission to spend the money often goes through 4 or 5 layers of bureacracy... each chair warmer wants to cut it some more.

Sorry this is kind of rambling.... it is more than just Chinese tools, it is more about globalization and trying to compete with the Chinese on their terms.

If we are to be successful, we must address all of the issues with China, not just cheap laser engravers.

Mark

[Steve Clarkson]

We're kidding ourselves if we don't realize that China will replace the USA as the new Super Power in a very few short years. The worst part is that we're LETTING them kill us because we want to save a few bucks here and there. Our children will never have it as good as we did. And yes, they will replace engravers sooner than you think......they already offer engraved wine glasses for $6......

[Rodne Gold]

At the end of it all , the labour costs in manufacturing a laser are not a huge part of the costs , albeit they are significant. The reason a lot of cheap lasers are cheap is cos of cheaper and less relaible parts , less precision engineering , copied R & D and lack of guarantee/support.
Yes , the laser might work almost as well as a well engineered product , but for how long will it be reliable in a production environment?
One of the reasons for china's ascendency is that it is pouring all its resources into growth etc rather than frittering away billions of $'s in useless and unwinnable conflicts and wars. It has been waging an economic war while we in the west fiddle whilst rome burns.

[Dan Hintz]

Mark,

Not that I disagree with the sentiment of your post, I believe people also hold an old notion of what chinese manufacturing is like. The day of $5/day labor and shacks for living space are fast becoming legend in all but the outermost provinces these days. The dormitories for living space are quite comfy (being fairly new construction), with 3 meals provided per day (all at company expense), and wages are surprisingly competitive these days. Employees are not locked into "slave deals" and are free to move to another company (and they do to increase their pay)... the companies realize this and pay everyone a good salary to reduce loss to other more enticing companies. Workdays are limited to 10 hours or less (this includes about 1.5-2 hours in breaks for food and rest). The wage may not seem like a whole lot on the surface, but once you factor in free living quarters and food, it's quite good. The workers are actually happy.

As far as worker quality goes, it's a culture they are trying hard to get away from. It's not that the workers are not intellilgent by any stretch of the word, they are simply left in the dark. The majority of workers putting together PCs do not own one of their own, nor do they know how to even operate one. The companies are finding that if they train their employees, they are coming up with surprisingly efficient ways to increase production, reduce hazards/mistakes, and solve problems as they come up without requiring intervention from the "head engineer". I know of one American company that blogged about their time spent in China getting a project off of the ground, and they were surprised at how skilled the workers were and how adept at problem solving they could be, but they were so used to being treated like mindless robots it took a while to get them to give feedback on the build process. Once they got them over the fear, things really started cookin'.

Once they manage to combine the best of the west in their thinking, we're going to see some real powerhouses come out of there.

[Robert Ray]

It's corporate greed and the road to recovery means the little guys like me and you have to write some new laws.

I would simply apply tarrifs to everything imported. If the TV would cost $500 to build in the US, and $33 to outsource, then I would tarrif the manufacturer $477 dollars to sell it in our country.

That money could go to local goverment, and pay our unemployment benifits.

If the manufacturer built his factory in our country, then he could sell the tv at a competitive price.

Also, I would have a law making it illegal to give corporate leaders of "Public" companies an exorbanate salary, and no golden parachutes. After all, they sold their companies out in exchange for offering stock, so they just need a reasonable salary, or go start a private company. Why should stock holders pay for them?

That said, I am very happy with my 3 Tiawan made lasers, as the quality and performanc has been exceptional. I would gladly purchase tools made from anywhere in the world, and pay a fair price for them even if there was tarrif's involved, just to get the quality and feature set I want.

[Marc Myer]

I would only point out that there's a world of difference between Taiwan and China, although both people are Chinese.
Taiwan long ago abandoned cheap approaches to manufacturing. Generally speaking, they do their own R&D, and pride themselves on high quality manufacturing and quality control. The products that are produced in Taiwan are competitive around the globe.

Mainland China is still in massive growth mode. The country is growing exponentially due to massive shifts of population from rural to urban areas. When I first visited Guilin in the 1980s, it was a picturesque city with a small town atmosphere, dirt roads and open shops. Today it is filled with skyscrapers and oppressive pollution. There are few controls on safety, pollution, or other areas that add so much to the cost of goods made elsewhere. For the most part, Chinese companies are using existing technology and replicating what was developed elsewhere. This means there's not been much need for R&D.

I have experience with having Chinese goods manufactured for our market. In order to get our business, the companies would produce a beautiful series of prototypes and offer a cheap price. Sadly, the actual products were made differently and of inferior quality. This has been the case for many of my colleagues who search for manufacturing partners. Most of us have found other ways to produce what we need. As people become aware of the balance between price and quality, there is definitely a trend towards spending a little more on quality.

[Bill Cunningham]

Funny, 40 years ago, I bought metal lathe for a sailboat rigging shop made by Kirloskar Western in India. It cost about $3,500.00 (a lot of money 40 years ago) but it was certainly a well built machine So not all Indian machines are crap either..

[Rodne Gold]

The issue of beautiful prototypes and poor long run quality is huge..I import marble from china , containerloads and every 2-3 months I have to call the mnfgrs and give em a mouthful as reject rates tend to creep upwards to the 20% level , they go bak down to 5% after , but creep up till the next earful I give em.
However , even at the 20% mark , its extremely worthwhile considering the cost to produce the same stuff here is about 15x the landed cost.
I was in Vietnam about 2 yrs ago...if you think china is cheap and nasty , vietnam is in a league of its own.
To give an example , it was cheaper to buy rip off Polo shirts (at $1 a pop) than have my own stuff dry cleaned , I bought 20 shirts and discarded them after being worn.