Lathe choices....questions from the flat world

[John Keeton]

Neal, thanks a bunch. Great website, great work, photography, and a wealth of info! Your links page, and the specs page are enough to keep me engaged for a good while. Some good hints, too, on the Wolverine setup.

[Mike Spanbauer]

just something to consider John is the new Delta 1hp vs unit. The few that have them have complimented fit / finish / build quality and it'll provide for a portable / "hidable" unit if you've limited shop space.

1hp too, which is equal to many of the smaller spindle lathes you mentioned.

I would personally pass on the 1442 as the reeves drives is problematic with them due to softer steels than the old version (I started w/a PM90 and it had a STOUT reeves drive in it). Wear is an issue depending on the hours you log on it and they are quite a bit louder than the belt change companions as noted by another.

The club idea proposed before though may be a great one as sometimes there are members who are looking to sell a lathe due to an upgrade OR be able to tune you in to a club discount.

mike

[John Keeton]

Thanks for the input, Mike! The seller on the 1442 would not budge, so I am out on that one. I think $850 is max value on a used 1442, and add in the 1.5 hour one way trip and cost, and it is too much.

I plan to visit Woodcraft today and do some hands on, and see what turning clubs may have posted info on their bulletin board. That is an excellent idea, and hopefully I will come away with some education and some leads. Thanks, again!

[John Keeton]

Thought I would post an update as to where I am on this issue. Did the Woodcraft thing, and looked at Delta, Jet and Rikon - all very nice lathes, and with some very nice features. Got the name of the local turners club, and emailed the president inquiring about possible lathes for sale. No reply yet.

But, while out going between tool stores and fabric stores (have to be nice to my lady when I am tool shopping - well, all the time for that matter), I went to Harbor Freight to check out the 34706, currently retailing at $249. I really didn't expect much.

However, it is a heavy chunk of iron, and not all that bad! It is on sale at $229, and with the 20% discount coupon, that puts it at $183! Came home, and read every review I could find, including many on SMC, as well as other turning forums. For the money, this plane gets a very good approval rating.

Unless I have a complete change of heart, I think I am going back tomorrow for the HF, get the cheap set of chisels, and all the other whatnots I might need. If this "round" thing doesn't work out, or if I do get sucked in to the vortex and want to upgrade, then I figure I can get $125 or so out of the 34706, and not have gotten hurt that bad.

Am I being totally out of reason on this?

[Wilbur Pan]

But, while out going between tool stores and fabric stores (have to be nice to my lady when I am tool shopping - well, all the time for that matter), I went to Harbor Freight to check out the 34706, currently retailing at $249. I really didn't expect much.

However, it is a heavy chunk of iron, and not all that bad! It is on sale at $229, and with the 20% discount coupon, that puts it at $183! Came home, and read every review I could find, including many on SMC, as well as other turning forums. For the money, this plane gets a very good approval rating.

Well, at least we know where your heart really is at in terms of woodworking tools.

As to the HF lathe, I looked at the HF website, and there are some issues with that particular lathe that I would be concerned with.

First, it looks like the base is made of riveted or bolted sheet metal. This is pretty inadequate for a lathe. Whenever you start off turning, your turning blank is going to be off balance, which means vibration, which is the enemy of good results with your turnings. I'm concerned that this base is not going to be sturdy enough. Quality lathes have a very heavy duty base, which helps dampen vibration. My bet is that you'll wind up having to build or modify the base on this lathe.

Second, the speed range (600-2400 RPM) is pretty limited. 600 RPM is on the high side for an out of balance blank that you are roughing down, and if you are interested in spindle work, you'll probably want to go higher than 2400 RPM at some point. As a point of comparison, the Delta 12" mini lathe has a speed range of 250-4000 RPM.

I'd also check out how you change speeds on this lathe. The HF website lists 10 possible speeds, and I'm not sure how all those speeds are achieved. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the Reeves drive method of speed changes, which is what it looks like this lathe has.

This lathe is 33 1/2" between centers. Most lathes in this class are 36" between centers or longer. Will this make a difference for spindle turning for furniture? Well, if the piece you need to turn is 34" long, you've got no recourse with the HF lathe.

Finally, there has to be some reason why the HF lathe is so inexpensive. My bet is that they skimped on the bearings and the castings. Bearings are to a lathe what the blade is to a plane -- they're indispensable to its function and efforts to get by with a lesser quality bearing/plane blade is a quick road to dissatisfaction. The casting is important not just for accuracy of machining but also for the weight. Cheaper castings are thinner, and weigh less, and a light lathe is an unstable lathe.

Many times it's useful to start with a cheaper tool and work your way up, but lathes are the one area that's an exception to this rule. I'd recommend again that instead of the HF lathe, seriously consider a new mini lathe with a bed extension, or if you really want to stay with a small budget, be patient and go the used route with a well known model of lathe.

By starting with the HF lathe and then upgrading, you're destined to lose at least $80 -- if you can actually sell the HF lathe for what you think you can. I would say that at this point you're much better off taking that $80 and investing it in a lesson or two with a local woodturner. That's the first thing that I did when I got started in woodturning -- I took a lesson from a local guy. It was completely worth it. You can also get their input on lathes. People who teach woodturning have nice equipment, and they can show you first hand what it is that makes a quality lathe that's hard to describe or appreciate over the internet. You didn't mention if you actually tried turning anything on the lathes at your local Woodcraft, but this is something that is best seen on a lathe in actual use.

To come full circle, maybe I can put this in hand plane terms. You're looking at a lathe that is at the same level as an Anant -- before they tried to beef up their quality and QC efforts. You might get lucky and get a good one, or you might get one that is going to take some work, and selling it later on might be a bit of an issue. Or you can find an old used Delta lathe, which is like finding a good condition Stanley plane.

But knowing you, I just know that you're going to eventually get a lathe at the level of a Veritas plane. And in this case, I'd just go for that. Rehabbing and upgrading lathes isn't anywhere as much fun as it is for planes.

And for my last hand plane analogy: try to imagine telling someone over the internet what it is about a LV plane that makes it worth having to someone who has never used a good quality plane. That's why I think it's so important to try out woodturning before settling on a lathe.

And if it doesn't work out, you'll have a much easier time selling a Jet or Delta mini lathe than you will the HF lathe.

P.S. Don't skimp out on the scroll chuck, either, although you don't really need one for spindle turning.

[John Keeton]

Ahhhhh... my Freudian slip gave 'way my hand!! Wilbur, all good points, and masterfully made!

I should say here that many years ago, I owned an old craftsman lathe - the one that you saw everywhere. Seems it was about a 30" bed?? I seem to remember that I bought it for $50, including the tools. Turned a dozen pieces on it, all very crude, nonetheless functional, as I had no instruction. That was before the era of instructional DVDs.

After that first couple of weeks, it sat in the corner of my shop for 10 years or so. Along with the years of accumulated sawdust, it eventually was sold or given away - I don't recall which.

Ultimately, at a yard sale, I came upon another one - identical - and acquired it. Never used it as I had sold the chisels and just never got around to buying more. Gave it away about 5 years ago.

I tell this story to illuminate my level of desire for this lathe. It differs from the plane analogy in that I really enjoy the "lure" of the planes, and I enjoy using them, and getting them sharp.

I am in the home of woodturners here, and must respect their haven. I hesitate to make this next statement, as I may not be permitted to return However, when I pick up a beautifully turned bowl, I can certainly admire the form, the grain of the wood, and the effort that went into it. But, it stirs no desire in me to do the same. I know I speak sacrilege as I stand on holy ground here, and I apologize in advance

With a plane, and/or a planed surface, it is different. When I see a plane, I have the urge to fondle it, use it, tweak it, and I really, really, like that glassy surface.

The lathe is simply a tool to produce the legs I need for the furniture I build. It is the end result that I am after. That completed piece - that mix of efforts that I love doing, and some that I hate. I love doing the dovetails, I hate doing the finish. I love the designing, I hate stock preparation....

If I had a next door neighbor that turned, and to whom I could contract out legs/spindles, I would not buy a lathe. Additionally, the styles of the legs for the furniture I enjoy building, are quite simple, and would not seem to require much more than 'ol Roy Underhill's springpole lathe. However, there is that element of being able to say at the end - I made ALL of that - thus where I am now.

Now, all of this may change. Lord knows, it has with many things - including the planes. But, given that I have had a couple of bites at this apple before, I doubt it.

Apparently, the HF lathe is identical to the Jet JWL-1236, as the part numbers are the same, and all parts interchange. I understand that it may be produced with inferior standards. But, at the least, the design has some mileage on it.

Notwithstanding your sage advice, and believe me, I do appreciate it and acknowledge that it is the wise thing to do, I believe I will still do the HF thing.

At this point, I would rather risk the entire $200 investment as opposed to making an investment of $1,000, or much more, that I may also regret. In all my searching, I have seen where two or three of the HF lathes have sold, and they sell quickly in the $150 range. I think I can get out of this easily if the urge either dies, or the flames of passion enthrall me. If not, I have lost little.

[Neal Addy]

To summarize Wilbur's post, "You get what you pay for."

[Tom Godley]

John - I was in your position a couple of years ago when I returned to the hobby of woodworking. I had enjoyed working on the lathe as a kid, but had not touched one in over 25 years. After spending a lot of time on the internet - and getting more confused - I stumbled upon a local turner who gave classes. It was only after I had signed up that I began to understand the significance of David Ellsworth!

Taking my first class not only changed my view of the possible -- it quickly educated me on what I did not need to purchase! Within a few hours of using different lathes at different heights at different speeds with tools from various places you begin to see what naturally fits. I left the class with my first hollow-form having never heard the term prior to signing up.

I would recommend that you try to find and take a class before you start your quest for hardware. I bet you will save the price of the class in wasted equipment. Last fall a friend of mine expressed interest in getting a lathe - I suggested he take a class with me but he declined because of the cost. He is now on his third lathe from craigslist and has twice as many old tools. He actually found a similar Jet that you are looking at - and complains about the 1hp motor size, head design and motor interference issues.

Now with all the above said -- I have taken quite a few day classes through two different local clubs where the very talented turners use all kinds of old lathes for particular uses and turn out amazing pieces. But every one of them seems to end up also owning one of the often mentioned better lathes on this forum. Some also own a mini lathe - The latest Jet VS being the currently recommended unit - for small projects or as a dedicated pen or ornament setup. Getting a mini unit may be the most logical starting point if going the new route and the capacity is enough - but you will still end up spending quite a bit. I have seen some great used equipment in various shops - I have never been lucky in finding them!

[John Keeton]

Well, against the sage advice of those better schooled in this than I, today I brought home the HF lathe, chisels, and face shield. Went to Woodcraft, and brought home the slow speed grinder, Wolverine jigs, and diamond wheel dresser. Total cost about $440, with tax, of which about $193 was the grinder setup, which I will use for many other things.

Sometime this weekend, I hope to unpack this stuff and I will report back with either tears of disappointment, or oblivious shouts of mediocrity! That is one of the great things about this. At this point, I wouldn't know quality if it hit me in the face!

Neal, I know you and Wilbur are correct - I am getting a cheap piece of Chinese iron - that is what I paid for. But, there is some likelihood that this lathe will see very little use. So, best to learn to sharpen, learn about spinny things, and see where this goes.

Tom, while at Woodcraft, I watched a fellow put the finishing touches on a very nice "hollow form" and, as I had experienced in the past - it didn't do much for me. However, I am a bit excited about going to the barn, and seeing if I can find a piece of wood to try my hand at a shaker leg!

I will update this thread after my first experience with this el cheapo lathe.

[Steve Schlumpf]

John - glad to see you get a great deal on your lathe! Looking forward to seeing some of your first turnings!

Just in case you haven't seen these things before, here are a couple of on-line videos that show some of the common tools and cuts that we use. Have fun with it!

http://www.turningtools.co.uk/videos/videos.html
http://www.ehow.com/video_4944009_wo...-gouge-vs.html

Hope that helps! Be sure to ask any and all questions!

[John Keeton]

Hey Steve, thanks!! I had not seen these links - although I have been drifting around youtube looking at some turning videos. I have marked these sites for definite viewing.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

Get a copy of Alan Lacer's video....The Skew Chisel - The Dark Side ..The Sweet Side.

For spindle work like turning furniture legs, the skew chisel is the the cat's meow!

While most folks will tell you it's the hardest tool to learn to use, once you master it, it is truly an incredible tool for spindle work.

Take a look at this thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...469#post584469

I turned the spindles for the wheel on Dave's sailboat using one tool....a 3/4" regular grind Robert Larson skew.

Bernie Weishapl will back up what I'm about to say. When doing spindle work with a skew, the resulting cut can be so smooth and yet detailed that any sanding will degrade the finish....any sanding will degrade the finish.

I spent 2 or 3 weekends just turning 2x2s into cylinders...then beads and coves......then cylinders...and repeat the process.

There are a few rules to using a skew:

1. Sharp..sharp....sharp....I grind and diamond hone. Then I can just hone for a long time.

2. Ride the bevel....Ride the bevel......Ride the bevel......Ride the bevel...

3. Commit...plan your cut.....visualize it...then start it and follow through...commit...any hesitation can and usually will result in a catch....or skating....

Once you learn to use a skew......any spindle work becomes faster and better......I don't even use a roughing gouge when doing spindle work...I rough out using........you guessed it....a skew.....

Good luck John!

[JerHall]

This highly regarded new lathe with 1 hp, 42" between centers, variable speed and reverse is well built, base lathe $600, don't know what extension is. I think a 5 year warrantee. Specs here: http://www.deltaportercable.com/Prod...roductID=19220

Also some good threads on this forum with satisfied users. Do a search.

You will always be able to sell this for your investment. It is very well built, and to a high standard from what I saw of a friends recent purchase. He is very happy and got it as his second "vacation" lathe.

Really worth considering for a ready to go solution with no surprises and lots of support in the woodturning community.

[John Keeton]

Ken, that is some impressive work on those spokes!! Very precise, consistent, and apparently a very smooth finish from the pics. I will search out the Lacer video - Thanks!!

When you say "I grind and diamond hone. Then I can just hone for a long time" I assume you mean for touchups on the diamond hone??

Jerry, thanks for the link on the Delta. I am going to crank up this HF I bought, and see how that goes before considering upgrades. But that Delta looks like a very nice unit, and I believe someone else mentioned looking at the new 1 hp. Delta. Must be a good machine.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

That's correct. I can touch up with a diamond hone. The hone that Lacer uses in his video is sold by Craft Supplies USA for about $24-28 IIRC. I've had one and been using it for several years.